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White House: Russia is executing soldiers who refuse to follow orders
(www.reuters.com)
There's a Stanley Kubrick movie about this that takes place in WWI called Paths of Glory. It's really haunting.
Russia's morality is back in the 1910s.
You don't even have to go that far back.
Enemy at the gates, Both movie (2001) and book (1973), give a graphic depiction of Stalin's Not a step back command, Order No. 227, where soldiers were shot for refusing orders to die where they stand and not retreat in WW2.
There was no arrest, trail and formal execution as seen in Paths of Glory. The troops had the choice to be shot by the Germans in front of them or by the USSR Political Officers behind them.
Enemy at the Gates is a decent flick, but it’s pretty inaccurate. I wouldn’t be citing it as a source on what actually happened on the eastern front.
I was replying to a comet about a movie, so I replied with one. I also linked order 227, which is accurate.
If you have a link that you feel is more accurate please post it.
I’m not disputing the content of order 227, I’m disputing the historical accuracy of the film. Yes, they did have supply issues, penal battalions, and blocking units in the Soviet army, but not like it was depicted in the film.
All in all, the most likely way that a soldier or officer would interact with a barrier troop was not through being cut down by a Maxim, but through arrest and drumhead court martial. Especially in the case of the NKVD detachments, they wouldn’t be set up right at the line of battle, but some ways to the rear, where they would apprehend retreaters, run a quick show “trial”, execute a few to make an example, and sentence considerably more to serve time in a penal unit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3pcjfv/comment/cw54qf3/?context=3
Enemy At The Gates is utter propagandistic and asinine bullcrap - you'll get more historical accuracy from Mel Gibson's crappy "historical" movies than that one.
Order No. 227 mostly only applied to high-level officers - in reality, the vast majority of retreating soldiers caught by barrier troops were merely returned to their units. There are records of these things - no matter what western historians assume.
You say there are records, but even right now Russia is intentionally keeping a lot of its dead soldiers go unrecorded (ie MIA instead of KIA) just so they can keep payouts lower and more easily downplay losses. Doesn't mean the same happened in WW2, but how do we know it didn't either?
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Ohhh, Braveheart VS Enemy at the Gates.
Sounds like a drinking game where everybody dies..
The original Call of Duty (2003) featured a level about the battle of Stalingrad where you're given a rifle but no ammo to start the level. That has always stuck with me.
That's why you shouldn't rely on crappy war-crime training simulators for your history knowledge.
It was obviously imitating Enemy at the Gates.
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That was a heavy movie. But definitely worth a watch.
Has Russia's morality ever been above that? Apart from some minor glitches in the system seen as chaotic, its history goes from one dictator to another.
Before the Mongols married into Moscow royalty. That's how far back you would have to go.
"And then it got worse." Russian history in a nutshell.
Hot take that’s his best film. Not that the rest aren’t great(Barry Lyndon aside)
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"We also have information that Russian commanders are threatening to execute entire units if they seek to retreat from Ukrainian artillery fire," Kirby said.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn't seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn’t seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
Well, good thing they are not armed!
This is utterly asinine. The only way to survive artillery when you're spotted is to run somewhere. The king of battle will zero in and wipe out everyone otherwise.
Threatening hundreds of armed men doesn’t seem like a smart thing for a commander to do.
They tried that in 1917, too - it most definitely wasn't a smart thing to do.
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the sign of a modern cutting edge military totally in control of their own frontline
Next they'll use decimation like ancient Roman armies.
Wouldn't be the first time. The soviets already did that in ww2, so there is a precedent for it.
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Something's got to give out eventually?
There's no way those tactics are sustainable,
There has already been the mutiny of the Wagner mercs, I wounder how far away it is for the army proper.
man, what a fucking tease that was
We were all geopolitically blue balled
Eh, Putin has to go but being replaced by a group of actual nazis who seem to know how to actually fight wasn't great either.
I was all for a "let them fight!" situation and Ukraine certainly could have benefited short-term from the distraction but the outcome was very unclear.
Treason against the Empire cannot be tolerated, and the swift execution of those found guilty upholds the rule of law and maintains the strength of our Galactic Empire.
Russia continuing its path towards the future. The grim dark future of Warhammer 40k.
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Here's the bit that chills me:
Representatives from the Kremlin, the Russian defense ministry, and the Russian embassy to the United States did not immediately respond to requests for comment about the issue.
If they're not denying it immediately that says they think there's some utility in not doing so.
The utility is sufficiently explained by the fact that diligently denying things creates the impression that not denying things means that it's true.
Also Russia denying it immediately would make me think it's definitely true. Then again, I've seen barrier troops shooting their own guys so I believe this anyway.
WWII all over again.
Put up Barrier troops, kill those that desert or retreat. Russia really hasn’t changed much. Just throw everyone at the enemy, poorly equip them, and kill or jail the ones that try to escape.
The pop culture myth of Soviets killing anyone who retreated is potentially based on a few real incidents of it, but the barrier troops were formally there to detain/arrest and most of them were sent back to active duty. It wouldn't necessarily have been for "retreating" either but for abandoning your unit, a unit could very well engage in a "retreat." There's also conflation between motivating propaganda saying things like "no retreat!" and supposed "no retreat laws." None of this is really unique to the Soviets or Russia either.
Russians have shot their own soldiers for retreating in the past in Ukraine. Now they shoot them for refusing orders. Not a good sign for them.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
WASHINGTON, Oct 26 (Reuters) - The United States has information that the Russian military is executing soldiers who do not follow orders related to the war with Ukraine, the White House said on Thursday.
"We have information that the Russian military has been actually executing soldiers who refuse to follow orders," White House spokesperson John Kirby told reporters.
"We also have information that Russian commanders are threatening to execute entire units if they seek to retreat from Ukrainian artillery fire," Kirby said.
The United States has strongly condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine and is providing aid to Kiev.
Kirby said Russia's mobilized forces were undertrained, underequipped, and unprepared for combat.
He said the military was using "human wave tactics" by throwing groups of poorly trained soldiers into the fight.
The original article contains 216 words, the summary contains 129 words. Saved 40%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
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this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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