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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Nahvi@sh.itjust.works to c/main@sh.itjust.works

EDIT: It seems that I have may have gotten the wrong impression about the community structure here from the @TheDude comment I listed below. It looks like this should have been posted to The Agora. I appreciate everyone who took the time to respond. Now I must go find fresh air and see if I can find this grass thing that I have heard so much about.

First, let me say thank you for spending your time and money on creating and maintaining this instance.

Second, the name sh.itjust.works is great. It gives me a little half smile every time I type it.

Third, I am hoping this can be my Fediverse home base but I have a single concern.

Now on to the meat:

I have been over on lemmy.world for the last few days and really enjoying the content and experience, but as I was learning more about the Fediverse I realized they have blocked a whole slew of other instances. Most of the reason I have grown to dislike and distrust reddit over the years was because of their random subreddit bans that didn't follow their own rules and processes, so it was a pretty big turn-off for me looking at the lemmy.world Instances List.

When I heard this instance only had two blocked instances, I immediately came here to check it out. I quickly saw like-minded individuals genuinely engaging in reasonable discussion about what should and should not be defederated, so I decided to go ahead and make an account. It didn't take long though before I decided to look into why each of the instances were banned.

It seems like burggit allows simulated CP which is a pretty decent reason for blocking them in my mind. On the other hand, the only thing I could find about lemmygrad.ml was this (https://sh.itjust.works/comment/130474) post that says you blocked it because of your personal convictions.

Given that this instance is your own personal project, I certainly don't fault you for choosing what is acceptable and what is not, but I am concerned about making sh.itjust.works my home base if it is just the start. Based on the previous post it doesn't seem like something you are going to change your mind about, nor do I have an interest in trying to convince you to do so. What I would like to know is if this is going to be a regular thing.

Are you intending to block any instances with political opinions that you are staunchly against? Further, are you planning to create any sort of standard for what kind of instance you are likely or unlikely to ban in the future?

Bonus question for my curiosity: What makes lemmygrad so against your personal convictions? While I have a basic understanding of Marxism/Communism and am aware that current communist countries have a pretty questionable history of violence and suppressing personal and political freedoms, I think an objective viewer might say the same thing about the representative republic that I live in.

tl;dr: Are you going to block other instances for personal reasons? Also, are you going to create any standards to indicate which instances may be blocked in the future?

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[-] TheDude@sh.itjust.works 75 points 1 year ago

Hi Nahvi.

Thanks for posting this well put together post. I can tell that you put some time and thought into this and I want you to know that I recognize that.

Regarding your concern, this is a topic that has been brought up numerous times over the past month. I've since moved towards being more community driven, letting users discuss and debate on topics that are important to them. These discussion move forward towards a vote over a 7 day period. This process will change over time as we come across flaws and look for ways solve them together.

One more thing I want to make clear regarding your tl;dr question Will I be blocking other instances for personal reasons? Short answer is no, I believe the community should determine what should or should not be blocked.

That being said I want to make myself clear that there are limitations, I will continue to defederate instances that openly promote or spreads hate speech, terrorism, CP, loli, trolling and instances that become bot instances. These shouldn't be things that need to be justified, I think they fall under the "be a good human" category.

I hope this clarifies your concerns and you continue to make sh.itjust.works your home.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hey dude, thanks for dropping by.

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the direction you're trying to herd cats towards.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago

@TheDude

Hello and thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

I appreciate you clarifying your stance on future blocking for both personal reasons and along the human decency lines. While I may lean fairly deeply into free speech territory, I also recognize the need for certain limits. The balance you've struck seems to be very reasonable, though I admit to being a hair surprised by the community driven approach.

I look forward to seeing which direction the community takes the instance.

[-] Tsinc@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago

Are you planning to actively moderate against racism, sexism, homophobia and transphobia?

[-] lol@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

will continue to defederate instances that openly promote or spreads hate speech

That's great but please define hate speech and give us some examples.

[-] JackFromWisconsin@midwest.social 17 points 1 year ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech

Hate speech is defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as "public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation".

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[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Firstly, welcome. I hope you choose to stick around.

Lemmygrad.ml is blocked and will almost certainly remain blocked. Any further discussion of that topic is moot. I understand your point, but to be frank, they only have about 700 active users. They simply don't have very much to contribute, even if they were commenting in good faith. And they obviously aren't, given how many instances have defederated them.

Going forward, the decision to defederate instances is not going to be taken lightly. I don't speak for TheDude, but my understanding of defederation is that it should be utilized defensively, rather than aggressively. If another server is harassing our users, disrupting our communities, or otherwise preventing our server from flourishing, then we will consider defederation.

Barring that extent of conflict, the block functionality exists so that individual users can protect themselves from unwanted content without compromising the integrity of the federated model.

You will have the opportunity to raise any arguments in favor of or against defederation in the relevant discussion thread that will be posted to the Agora prior to the vote.

https://sh.itjust.works/c/agora

We do not have any intention of becoming beehaw here, but we also need to protect the standard of discourse that has already emerged on this server.

I hope I have addressed your concerns. Let me know if there's anything I left out.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

I appreciate the thorough response, but yeah, you kind of did miss my main question. I am just trying to find out if it is @TheDude's intention to block other subs that conflict too strongly with his views.

I really don't care much one way or another if one instance that I am pretty unlikely to interact with is blocked, but I want to find out if it is a single event or if he just hasn't had a chance to ban all the groups that offend him.

[-] imaqtpie@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago

The users themselves will be voting on who to ban. I cannot speak for TheDude, but his decision to set up a democratic forum for voting on server decisions surely speaks for itself, no?

I really don’t care much one way or another if one instance that I am pretty unlikely to interact with is blocked, but I want to find out if it is a single event or if he just hasn’t had a chance to ban all the groups that offend him.

It's a single event. Anything else?

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[-] Shit@sh.itjust.works 34 points 1 year ago

I think part of it had to do with genocide denial being pretty rampant there and way outnumbering the number of users in new instances when the reddit blackout started. One of the top posts here when the instance was new was asking if the admin even allowed discussing the topic. I think @god made the post I'll see if I can find it.

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[-] Aviandelight@lemmy.world 32 points 1 year ago

This shit is so tiresome already. If you don't like the atmosphere of one instance then find another. It really is that simple. Quit harassing the instance admins they don't owe you shit.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Seems like you didn't actually read my post.

This is the new parking lot that I am checking out. It seems pretty nice so far, but there is a weird statue in the corner. If it is just a one off that is cool. If it is the first among many then maybe I need to keep driving around.

Edit: Seems like I combined the two posts when responding, but I think I am going to leave it as is.

[-] Catpocalypse@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

You're asking a person with a day job who is doing a cool thing for the fediverse community and set up a community in sh.itjustworks (Agora) to handle these possible future blocks to give you a granular breakdown of the blocking of one instance in a justification they don't really owe you.

The community itself is trying to be chill and just vibe. If what we're doing fits what you're looking for, welcome.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

And you are repeating my own words back to me in a different order as if it will surprise me into keeping my questions to myself.

Pardon me for trying to find out if I just wandered into an environment that is as chill and welcoming as it seems from the outside or another reddit where many genuine questions will get shouted down.

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[-] Dirk_Darkly@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

They're asking a question without demanding anything in a very chill manner. It would seem you're the only one getting twisted about it. Ease up and let people ask questions. You can get heated again if they won't take "no" for an answer.

[-] wellnowletssee@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago

I don’t see @Nahvi@sh.itjust.works harassing anyone but asking questions I also personally find interesting. I started my life in the fediverse on this instance since a) I wanted to distribute the load new users were (still are?) generating moving away from Reddit b) the rules were good (upvote/downvote, nsfw, etc) and c) the name. I didn’t bother about checking the instance-admins preferences and only now learning about de-federation. And now I am wondering if I should ease down my enthusiasm because I might need to switch to an other instance (later than sooner).

So yes, maybe a few personal words about the instance and especially about other federated instances I would be curious to read.

Please keep up the good work though @TheDude@sh.itjust.works . I can’t imaging how much work is involved in keeping this instance alive and have great respect.

[-] Kururin@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

Exactly. There’s so many instances for anyone who don’t like one to migrate to

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[-] loaf@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 year ago

I’m gonna park my car here for this.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When I first made an account on lemmy.ml, I looked over at the lemmygrad.ml "Introduce yourself" thread. Heavily upvoted hot comment was somebody saying "Joined up to troll and fight liberals! Gonna show those libtards how stupid they are" (paraphrasing, don't remember the exact words).

When I eventually moved here, I was happy to see it defederated already. Celebrating trolling and "fighting" people isn't something I want to see here.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

That sounds like a good reason to block that idiot or maybe even that community from my own thread, but I would rather make my own choice as to when someone or a community is not acting in good faith. I don't need someone with different values than my own trying to protect me from some words I might find offensive.

On the other hand, blocking burggit so I don't have simulated CP showing up in my feed is not the kind of choice that I need clarification about.

[-] Lols@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don’t need someone with different values than my own trying to protect me from some words I might find offensive.

it seems like you have a fundamental issue with instances like sh.itjust.works and would be better off joining a different one, or even better making your own then

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[-] pancakes@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

Sounds like you would be happier swapping instances. For the most part, the people here want it to remain a civil place without having the side project of keeping up with which instances are trash and manually having to block things. I'm sure there's instances with much more liberal views on defederation that suit your personal preferences better.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

Sounds like you would be happier swapping instances.

I am not so sure that you read my post. This was the new instance that I went to because it had less blocked instances.

I will tell you that the more of these comments I read the more I am starting to think that I never left reddit and that few people, if any, bothered to read anything besides the title.

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[-] IsThisLemmyOpen@lemmy.dbzer0.com 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The instance called lemmygrad promotes an ideology that's considered extremist by many instance owners, so it has been defederated by many big instances. The other ones one the list that are defederated because of an unusual number of users to content ratio, leading many instance owners to suspect that they are bot accounts used for spam so any instance with these suspicions are also defederated, not because of ideology, buy simply because of the perceived spam threat. Now I don't know how true is the bot threat, but that is what people have been saying is the reason for defederation.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

If this was one of the larger instances that has defederated a bunch of instances like lemmy.world, I wouldn't have blinked that it defederated another one. Sh.itjust.works has exactly two blocked instances, one of which seems to invite pedos the other seems like a political group. In my mind, those are a bit different and worth asking a question or two about before deciding this place isn't as welcoming as it seemed from the outside.

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[-] xtremeownage@lemmyonline.com 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

lemmygrad.ml is generally defederated.

To explain it, remember r/thedonald?

lemmygrad.ml is the communist equivalent. (literally). Its an extremist group.

Edit- @Menu@slrpnk.net and @Tsinc@feddie.de

Please do explain your disagreement (downvote). Are you saying lemmygrd.ml is not an extremist group? Or are you defending them?

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago

lemmygrad.ml is generally defederated.

The fact that a bunch of other instances also defederated something has no bearing at all on my thoughts or opinions.

To explain it, remember r/thedonald?

I do remember r/thedonald. Though it has been awhile the thing that stands out in my memory is that reddit seemed to ban it because other redditors couldn't stand it being around, not because it violated their TOS.

Its an extremist group.

lemmygrad.ml might be filled with extremists and is definitely not my cup of tea, but blocking any and all groups that are a little different from mainstream standards is not the kind of thing I can get behind.

Most of our beloved democratic, republican, and liberal ideals were extremist views not so long ago.

Are you saying lemmygrd.ml is not an extremist group? Or are you defending them?

And just so we are clear, I downvoted you because of this kind of you have to agree with me or you are defending me enemy phrasing.

[-] Tsinc@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You said the community that mainly contains the following message would be as extreme as TD.

I support freedom. I support individual right to choose.

What does that even mean? I know a lot of republicans struggle with this concept. Don’t bully them. Their smooth brains struggle.

Guns kill people. Every other country has solved this problem. Control who has access to guns. Do you really think you will stand up to the entire government, military, with a single assault rifle? Grow the fuck up. Make your community better. Stop living in perpetual fear.

Women have a right to decide for themselves. Abortion is always an option. A ball of cells is not a baby. Its not murder. Stop forcing rape victims to birth.

Christian ministers, priests, reverends. These are the single biggest perpetrators of molestation. Supporting christianity is supporting the destruction of childhoods.

How many drag queens have been arrested abd charged? How many catholics?

look inwards. take a moment to consider why you’re being built, pushed, towards hate.

You can change. You can open your eyes. You can be accepted. I have forgiveness for those who are genuine. Reality is here for you.

do you not consider why you’re attacked or ostracised from society? Its because your views are toxic. Your views are hateful. Your views go against what the majority of humanity wants and stands for.

You can be better. You can grow and learn.

Hand in your fascist card. We can accept you. Just let go of your hate and anger.

Propaganda has blinded you. Its your choice to simply turn away. Help exists wherever you reach out.

Open your eyes.

Open your eyes

We are here for you. We are here to support your journey back to reality.

It’s scary. But you have support. Just ask.

https://lemmy.world/post/108227

Thanks for letting me add this

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[-] Zaphodquixote@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

Dude. You're late to the party. This has already been posted about and discussed to death.

You don't have the background info to understand yet. Hang back a bit, read older posts. There are very good reasons that there are several instances that are damn near universally defederated.

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[-] ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

I don’t know if they should or shouldn’t be defederated. I will say they openly brigade. That is just my personal observation, and you shouldn’t trust a random comment without data to back it up. But maybe keep an eye out and you’ll see it.

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[-] Aikawa@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I have nothing to add to the topic for you OP, but I have to underline the irony of seeing some anti-defederation people suddenly resorting to the same arguments they were previously waving away, and this in order to justify the blocking of lemmygrad 😂 (which I'm not trying to defend; them being blocked is one of my criteria for selecting an instance).

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[-] mrpants@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago

If you or anyone else doesn't like an instance then leave. Go find another one. No one needs to be holding your hand as you ask a million questions to evaluate if an instance is "right for you" or some other such nonsense.

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[-] sudo@lemmy.fmhy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

"I want someone else to pay for hosting and maintaining an instance for me, to admin it and moderate its communities, but when they make a choice I disagree with that's not okay."

Well, good thing there's a way for you to stand up your own instance that you can federate or defederate whatever instances you want.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 year ago

Thank you for literally putting words in my mouth, quotation marks and all.

If you had bothered to spend one minute reading the post, that I literally spend thirty minutes typing up, you would have noticed that the first sentence was to express appreciation for the time and money @TheDude on creating and maintaining this instance. At no point did I say he was wrong or even that I disagreed with his choice. I just asked for clarification on the matter.

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[-] Lols@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

federating with lemmygrad means opening your communities up to the same behaviour displayed there, such as active calls for political violence, suggesting users kill themselves, ableist slurs etc

having personal convictions against this sort of behaviour seems entirely reasonable

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If you want to ask TheDude specifically there's no need to open a comment thread here, you can just PM him directly.

[-] Nahvi@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

That makes sense and I probably should have considered it more, though I also thought it would be useful if the response was public. Since I went searching for it myself, I thought other new users might do the same.

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this post was submitted on 27 Jun 2023
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