Marx loved markets that’s why his name shares three letters.
He loves them so much "Marx" is just his cool hip abbreviation for "markets"
This is outright lying with statistics. The majority of traders on U.S. stock exchanges (95%+) are individual traders. They just use a clearing house that does the trading for them because it's cheaper and faster.
Yeah, but I don't think, that was the point of the meme. It was just about making fun of tankies.
i thought it was making fun of US capitalism where socialism is used as an invective.
Nah it wasn’t it was making fun of the concept of “Marxist Leninist Stock Exchanges” implying that its just “state capitalism”.
Btw, happy cake day.
A mutual fund buys and sells on behalf of the consumer so individuals don't have voting rights.
Also wrong. You can vote if you buy stocks themselves and not mutual funds.
Also wrong.
Only 21% of Americans directly own stock.
https://www.fool.com/research/how-many-americans-own-stock/?msockid=3cc1caf3010a68e612d9dc83002769e8
You can't say a statement is wrong by agreeing with it. You just said that they use clearing houses. The majority of stock ownership in the US is through mutual funds and other similar products where individuals cannot vote.
You can vote if you buy stocks themselves and not mutual funds.
I said people who buy mutual funds can't vote you muppet.
By volume, right?
95% of volume is done by individual traders?
Surely

This is why I don't fuck with that. That and the memestock nonsense. I could tell you a high volume stock strike on Fridays by calculating how much corruption it took for market makers to not lose their ass. It's all rigged and disgusting. They'll drop a nuke on someone if their son in law can make a million.
The majority of traders on U.S. stock exchanges (95%+) are individual traders.
Absolutely need a source for that one. Sounds wrong on both volume of $ and volume of trades.
.ml collectively shits pants
There are two types of tankie. They either a) are very good at selectively ignoring what they’re not supposed to see or b) not true believers and are just trolling for the lolz
You forgot the third type: use dialectical materialism to analyze the world and understand what's going on around them instead of using idealist and moral thinking like "markets bad", allowing them to have nuanced understandings of why a revolutionary state would have a stock market.
nuanced understandings
stock market
you're a fucking parody of yourself, and it's fucking hilarious.
So weird, right? It's almost like you have a... a sort of reaction... a knee-jeek reaction maybe... to the concept of a stock market. It's almost like we differ not by ideology but by the fact that one of us is curious enough to research and analyze what appear to be contradictions and understand them in their historical and world systems context and the other is a reactionary.
Yeah, I react to the idea of a capitalist economy being a good idea. Don't fuck with me, tankie, your debate bro bullshit isn't thought out, and you aren't an intellectual. You're a fucking slave with Stockholm.
use dialectical materialism
AKA, mental gymnastics.
It takes mental gymnastics to call tankies both dogmatic book worshippers and simultaneously people who can accept a Chinese stock market into their understanding of revolutionary theory.
Nobody ever said tankies are good at theory. It's not complicated: Tankies dogmatically worship the biggest state that calls itself communist and pretend it's doing what the books say.
So much contradiction wrapped up into one simple comment.
They're dogmatic because they pretend that it's aligned with the sacred texts? And you're better than that because you adhere more strictly to the text? Do you see the problem here? In fact, tankies don't judge AES by textual alignment. It is not a requirement that any state that calls itself communist does what the books say.
In fact, it's clearly impossible for them to do so, because the books are theory, which comes before practice. Practice will always be ahead of the published and established theory, but it will always be behind the leading edge of theory which is not established and often not published. That theory is not settled theory. It gets settled through... practice. We are all capable of incorporating a collapse of China into our theory as much as we are capable of incorporating a transition to a more socialist organization into our theory, because our theory is built upon real world experiences, not textual analysis.
But also, how do you account for the tankies' support for the smaller, and even the smallest, state that calls itself communist? Are they worshiping them too? What about when the small states and the big states do it differently and the tankies support both of them? How does that work?
State propaganda is the de facto means by which tankies incorporate new information into theory: People may have their own "learning processes", but ones that contradict the large state either learn to conform better, stop being tankies, or get purged. Thus anyone who has been a tankie for more than a year "settles theory" in a way that is causally determined by state propaganda, i.e. they treat it as dogma.
This means they back the large state no matter what, and other states when the propaganda allows it. And indeed we see that tankies approve of large communist states attacking small ones or engaging in CIA-style political interference.
I am not asking you to adhere to communist texts more closely, I am asking you to see how the process by which you change your mind can causally be traced back to the owners of large Chinese corporations justifying the accumulation of capital.
State propaganda is the de facto means by which tankies incorporate new information into theory
A bold claim, indeed! Surely you have research to back this up. Maybe you have a really strong theoretical argument that shows how this is inescapable. You wouldn't just open with a totally vibes-based statement and reveal your bias immediately, completely undermining your position, would you?
People may have their own “learning processes”, but ones that contradict the large state either learn to conform better, stop being tankies, or get purged.
Oh. I guess not. I guess you just have vibes. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Thus anyone who has been a tankie for more than a year “settles theory” in a way that is causally determined by state propaganda, i.e. they treat it as dogma.
Big words for such a small idea. One could also say that MLs have a shared discourse through which theory is built upon, like literally every other theoretical discipline, and then have quite varied and dynamic debates about how to incorporate empirical evidence from both historical discoveries and the present day movements. Surely we'd be able to find evidence of this.
And of course, we do. There are people who believe the USSR was a better representation of MLism than China is today, and there are people who disagree with that. There are people who believe that neither are good representations but that Cuba has done a better job. There are those who believe MLism needs to be better integrated with decolonial and subaltern theory and those that believe decolonialism needs to transcend MLism (and of course those that believe decolonialism needs to abandon and reject MLism).
Oh look. A basic survey of the variety of positions that are still as yet unresolved within the community of MLism around the globe. Real dogmatic if you ask me! Those dogmatists should really stop being so dogmatic about regurgitating state propaganda from the largest state.
This means they back the large state no matter what, and other states when the propaganda allows it. And indeed we see that tankies approve of large communist states attacking small ones or engaging in CIA-style political interference.
It's almost like you start with your bias and then reason backwards from there. Refusal to condemn entire movements for specific actions becomes approval of the specific actions, thus proving to you that these people are morally inferior and cannot think for themselves.
The reality is that "tankies" accept errors, failures, and "evils" because they are unavoidable as a class of phenomena. Every single movement will have these moments. That movements have these moments are insufficient reasons to abandon the movements. Adherence to an ideological or moral purity test is...
... dogmatic.
I am asking you to see how the process by which you change your mind can causally be traced back to the owners of large Chinese corporations justifying the accumulation of capital.
Wild! So when Mao said that the revolution needs to embrace class collaboration as a fundamental strategy, he was the owner of a large Chinese corporation justifying the accumulation of capital? Tell me more!
Unrelated to the discussion, but dismissing dialectical materialism like that is a bit harsh. It is still very prominent in international relations critical theory, for example. I even learned about Marxism and dialectical materialism in my highschool politics class, lol
Internal contradictions are akshually totally good and not evidence of ideological impurity!
I love that your standard is ideological purity! It's like you're a textbook case of what not to do.
evidence of ideological impurity!
It doesn't matter if the cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.
"Ideological purity" first off, isn't really a thing in Marxism-Leninism, because Marxism-Leninism explicitly calls for adapting policies to specific material conditions. To the extent that people have tried to pursue an "ideologically pure" version of it, it generally hasn't worked so well. The Great Leap Forward, for example.
Now, one would think that China learning from its past mistakes and adapting policy in such a way that 700 million people get lifted out of extreme poverty would be seen as a good thing. And one would think that if someone didn't see this move as a good thing, then they must prefer China's pre-reform policies when they didn't have billionaires and a stock market. Yet somehow, y'all seem to just blindly hate China regardless of what kind of policy they implement.
It kinda seems like what we are dealing with is an anticommunist ideological framework that can transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence, a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.
Yet somehow, y’all seem to just blindly hate China regardless of what kind of policy they implement.
As an anarchist, I dont hate China specifically, I just hate states in general. So as long as the chinese state doesnt implement policies to abolish itself, I will always have something to critize.
Well, the funny thing about that is that Chinese state has actually done that. Or Mao did, anyway.
See, Mao feared that the government was going to follow the same reformist path as the USSR, so he issued a series of declarations saying that the government had been infiltrated by bourgeois elements, that the people of China had a "right to rebel," and finally calling on them to "Bombard the Headquarters."
These declarations created a period of violence and disorder known as the Cultural Revolution, where independent, student-led militias known as Red Guards formed and started fighting whoever they suspected of being counter-revolutionary. With no command structure, they often wound up fighting each other, when they weren't committing atrocities.
Ironically, all this did was discredit this approach and convince a lot of people of the necessity of the reforms they were meant to prevent, and of the central government.
Of course, there were another time in Chinese history where China lacked a strong central government. After the fall of the Qing, there was no central government at all. This is generally referred to as the warlord period, and it sucked so bad that the communists and nationalists put aside their differences to try to end it. Unfortunately, China remained largely decentralized, which allowed the much smaller but more centralized nation of Japan to invade and kill tens of millions of people.
If you don't read theory/study history, it's easy to just rail against authority and centralization from an idealist perspective, but if you actually study China's history and conditions, you'll find reasons for every path they've chosen.
You understand that if China were to do that today, it would immediately be vassalized, neoliberalized, and plundered by the imperial core, just as the dissolved Soviet states were 35 years ago, right? That life expectancies would plummet and poverty would become rampant?
Until imperialism (“the highest stage of capitalism”) is dismantled, socialist states are necessary. Basically, nearly everyone has to reach socialism before anyone can reach communism, because capitalism, as long as it continues to exist, will never stop trying to expand. You can’t wish your way immediately to the end-goal. You will surely fail.
How about kind of afraid it might be impossible to hold out against imperialist capitalism without some degree of nasty repressive shit.
Skill issue.
China is building socialism by the year 2352 you have to trust the process
This we get to have cyberpunk 2077 in real life, so I am thankful to the CCP.
It's almost like MLs aren't dogmatic and don't need to assess everything by whether or not it's approved by specific authors
There is being undogmatic and there is just doing capitalism but in red.
It never fails when ML loathe capitalism, but doesn't criticise the red capitalism. What strange doublethink to have (which by the way, this is what Orwell pretty much describes when he coined the term, doublethink, as a tool in authoritarianism).
https://impactwealth.org/chinese-stock-market-a-deep-dive-into-the-6-trillion-meltdown/
I mean, I can keep going, literally every article about investing in the Chinese stock market shows its risk. If this trace of propaganda has any truth to it, maybe its composition is just a reflection on who is being left and targeted. Yeah, yeah, I know, "West press is biased" (Al Jazeera?) but that's what you get with such deeply rooted suppression of free speech in China. Even Trump era press is still better even if US press is rapidly dropping to that level.
I guess I need to level up my imagining a pathway to better world skills.
Memes of Production
Seize the Memes of Production
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Rules:
Be a decent person.
No racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, zionism/nazism, and so on.
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