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One of the most aggravating things to me in this world has to be the absolutely rampant anti-intellectualism that dominates so many conversations and debates, and its influence just seems to be expanding. Do you think there will ever actually be a time when this ends? I'd hope so once people become more educated and cultural changes eventually happen, but as of now it honestly infuriates me like few things ever have.

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[-] z3n0x@feddit.de 137 points 1 year ago

“In 1976, a professor of economic history at the University of California, Berkeley published an essay outlining the fundamental laws of a force he perceived as humanity’s greatest existential threat: Stupidity.

Stupid people, Carlo M. Cipolla explained, share several identifying traits: they are abundant, they are irrational, and they cause problems for others without apparent benefit to themselves, thereby lowering society’s total well-being. There are no defenses against stupidity, argued the Italian-born professor, who died in 2000. The only way a society can avoid being crushed by the burden of its idiots is if the non-stupid work even harder to offset the losses of their stupid brethren.”

https://qz.com/967554/the-five-universal-laws-of-human-stupidity

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 45 points 1 year ago

Some may argue the internet has allowed them to coordinate. Providing each other with new and more novel ideas.

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[-] AceFuzzLord@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is why I am 100% in favor of normalizing regularly having things like computer/internet literacy tests msybe every half decade to ensure you are actually smart enough to use the internet in a responsible manner. Don't pass? No internet access for you outside of things educational material, cooking recipes, or sending messages to people. No access to your social media or conspiracy theory groups or anything else that'll harm your brain.

It'll either encourage people to get better at cheating, give up on using the internet entirely, or they might actually try to learn something and better their lives.

Some will definitely complain that they're having their rights violated (USA), but if it keeps the Internet safe from stupidity even by a small margin, I'll gladly take it.

[-] angstylittlecatboy@reddthat.com 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I am so sick of reading proposals like this from probably-white non-US Westerners who have probably never actually had to engage with the idea that racism exists. This might get some fascist groups off the internet, sure, but it would also likely push oppressed minority groups who do not necessarily have access to quality education out. That's the history of minimum IQ requirements for voting, mind you.

Put this proposal in front of a Proud Boy and they'll likely be in favor of it, because they believe whites are the only people smart enough to pass it. They'll stop being in favor once it goes into effect and they're included along with groups they hate in the "not allowed online" crowd, but the groups they hate, some of whom's situations may be made direly worse by the lack of unrestricted internet access, will most likely be pushed out too.

[-] Hexarei@programming.dev 17 points 1 year ago

Here we have a person who has never considered the important question: Who among us is intelligent enough to decide where the line lies between good enough and not good enough?

When do we consider someone too stupid to use the Internet? Bottom 50%? Bottom 10%? If bottom 10%, what do we do about the people who score exactly with 10.1%? They're nearly indistinguishable from the bottom 10% in terms of performance, yet they still get to go online?

Who decides which sites and services are ok? The government? The ISP? The site creators? You? What happens when your approved messaging service adds short form videos? Adds group chats?

The ultimate problem: There are no good answers to any of these questions, and if you think you have one, you are almost certain to have missed something significant in your evaluation of the options.

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[-] bobbi_d2@lemmy.world 99 points 1 year ago

By eliminating critical thinking, and polarizing everyone, those in power can do whatever they want, and the rest of us won't be sufficiently organized to stop it.

I'm seeing positive signs though, labor unions getting successful settlements, and more awareness. So maybe?

[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 13 points 1 year ago

It's just absurd that so many people fall into the shitter so incredibly easily without second consideration. But those who don't also need to get out of the mentality of 'I can't do anything' because even a single individual can have a massive impact in other people's lives and the world without major ambitions. Every time somebody says that, it just feels so pathetic, like they have given up attempting any responsibility and relinquished the last of their power even though so much more could have been accomplished. We collectively need to have a much stronger resistance to injustice in the world, and we are making progress, but it's so slow it's eclipsed by the amount of atrocious shit that happens almost every single day. I find it saddening how quick people are to resign themselves from doing something just because the odds are against them.

[-] bobbi_d2@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Yes, you're absolutely right. There's a lot of hopelessness and apathy, and it's only helping those who commit the atrocities.

But before you judge, I'll state that I've been a member of an activist group, progressivecoders dot org, for the last 5 years. I've worked on various projects, but overall watched the world situation get worse anyway. Even before that, I've done my best to be an activist and ally.

I've also been in the software industry for 30 years. I've watched it go from a genuinely useful and interesting information processing and delivery system, to a completely shittified ad delivery and surveillance tool. I've had to participate in it myself, I was actually part of the team that delivered the first animated GIF that made advertising that much more annoying. I worked for several of the big internet monopolies, and realized that it wasn't an accomplishment, they just crack the whip that much harder, and I have CPTSD in exchange for free lunches and massages.

So yeah, I'm starting to give up. But it's not for lack of trying.

[-] raz0rf0x@pawb.social 66 points 1 year ago

I have decided that it is safe to assume that everyone is an idiot, including me, and behave accordingly: act deliberately with an open mind, making no assumptions, and remain curious.

Frank Herbert's Bene Gesserits had a tenet in which they remained mindful of the naivety of all people, including themselves, ostensibly to prevent allowing hubris to allow poor decisions.

Coming back around to my point: I think we'd all get along a lot better if we'd all agree we're all stupid, but we can get better.

[-] JohnnyEnzyme@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

These are good points and good techniques IMO, and to add on--

Humans have always been drowning in the unknown, hence our chronic set of coping mechanisms, but on top of that, in this high-tech information civilisation we currently live in, now we're drowning in information, as well. Which leads to some big problems, of course.

As in-- it takes considerable effort, honesty and openness to form a decent perspective on most subjects these days, particularly significant ones, and because of that hurdle, I fear that most people (you, I, everyone) are inclined to 'settle' for flawed understandings of topics, even with best intentions. Or at worst, some of us form whatever ludicrous opinions simply because it makes us feel better / at peace / self-righteous.

Point is-- it seems like the world just has way too much information for people to handle these days, effectively worsening our collective mental health and communal behavior, one might say.

@CobblerScholar@lemmy.world

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[-] IonAddis@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

Funnily enough, if as an intellectual you let go of the idea that others are dummies and start examining what they do and why and start brainstorming about what might motivate them, you might get a better idea of all the dynamics that go on when it comes to an individual's choice or motivation. Including, yes, why people are "anti-intellectual". And perhaps how to "solve" it.

I'm a bit snarky here, because I get irritated by other supposedly "smart" people looking at things through a tiny, biased and prejudged pinhole.

You're smart? Ok. Get out there, observe things, learn them, then come back and form a hypothesis that aligns with what you've observed.

[-] PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm not sure that your statement has anything to do with stopping thinking of others as dummies. I think it's telling you to think of them that way, and you're just trying to push that under the rug to try to be nice.

You're saying to understand anti intellectualism you need to understand things from their perspective.

The lack of knowledge (especially true knowledge) and lesser ability to understand complex ideas are major aspects of that perspective.

No matter how we define or measure intelligence, we're mathematically guaranteed that it's distributed approximately on a bell curve with a small number of intelligent people at the top.

[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 12 points 1 year ago

I'll never not see anti-intellectual people as stupid, even if they have their reasons. I used to be an idiot who actively did things they thought were wrong. But eventually I stopped because I realised it's completely hypocritical and morally and logically wrong. I came to that conclusion without need of others judging me through my own self-reflection, and I'll admit it was hard. Even so, I wished somebody would have called me out, but I guess animal consumption is so engrained in society people don't even question it. I had my reasons to do so, but they were by no means a justification. I still try to understand things in different ways, but eventually it becomes redundant taking each case and doing so. The reality is that anti-intellectualism is incredibly prevalent and people need to change their ways of thinking. Sometimes they are just blatantly wrong and need to stop letting their emotions do their thinking. Sometimes there is nothing to understand. I don't know why people are so bent on seeing every individual separately, it's impossible to do so. Even if we do, they are still liable for their actions. Such as choosing not to self-reflect.

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[-] frightful_hobgoblin@lemmy.ml 45 points 1 year ago

"the world" is not anti-intellectual, you just hang out with the wrong people

[-] idkwhatimdoing@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 year ago

Perhaps not the whole world, but I'm many/most countries, the larger structures, like government and business, absolutely are anti-intellectual. Nice to have an academic friend group, but that doesn't change the fact that capitalism makes education less accessible in order to rely on an undereducated workforce, and then politicians push it even further for the sake of easy control.

[-] sxan@midwest.social 22 points 1 year ago

Some folks can't much help who they hang out with. Any American is literally surrounded by thousands of miles of other Americans, and anti-intellectualism is rampant in the country. It's not like Sweden is going to let Americans immigrate with the justification that "I'm a sad intellectual surrounded by boorish peasants."

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[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm very specific about my friends, I promise you that isn't the problem. It's more of an observational thing, and it is clearly present in western society at the very least. Even with my friends, we are still an insignificant minority compared to the larger population.

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[-] oxjox@lemmy.ml 29 points 1 year ago

Can we start with anti-I-Need-My-Dopamine-Hit-Every-10-Minutes?

Between people's ever depleting attention span and our desire for acceptance on social media, I just don't see how you can even begin to tackle "anti-intellectualism".

Most people use these platforms to comment on a headline and never read the article. Perhaps we could all decide to use these platforms properly and use the downvote button to bury comments that, while funny or otherwise emotionally engaging, are clearly not accurate or providing value to the topic of discussion.

By upvoting funny comments and rewarding hive-mind mentality, we're partly to blame for the lack of intellectualism.

[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 13 points 1 year ago

Lemmy is far better than Reddit regarding the use of downvotes, but many people still use it as an emotional disagreement button rather than something used to hide useless/irrelevant content. I only downvote when somebody says something completely fucked or starts trolling.

I don't think upvoting funny comments is necessarily wrong, but there is a lack of meaningful engagement a lot of the time.

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[-] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 29 points 1 year ago

I believe there is an evolutionary purpose to human stupidity though, and it's the reason we've come so far as a species. Without writing a novel here, look up the concept of simulated annealing, which is conceptually related to natural selection. The short version is, when searching for a better solution to problem in a sea of functionally infinite possible solutions, if you only ever try solutions you can see that are categorically better than the solution you currently have, you will (with statistical certainty) end up in a local maxima. That is to say, without stupid people, no one would have ever looked at a cow udder and thought, "yeah, I wanna get in on that", and as a result many humans throughout history would have gone without nutrients necessary for their survival.

I have no idea who first drank cow's milk, that's not the point, don't @ me. The point is, stupid people try stupid stuff, many times it is just as stupid as it looked, but sometimes that stupid thing turns out to have previously undiscovered potential benefits which smart people notice, research, and help integrate into our society, resulting in others' lives being better.

[-] DragonAce@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

So to further simplify, stupid people are unwitting test subjects that the rest of humanity sometimes benefit from because they do dumb shit no one else would have thought to try.

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[-] firesDump@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You know, the only thing that keeps smart people from trying stuff is cultural boundaries and social fitness, which in itself is something evolutionary grown and includes small progress to a local maxima? You know, that the only thing that keeps us from trying unconventional stuff is often the lack of money, which inherently comes from the state. The politics decide about money and they also cater to stupid voters or to business interests. This in itself is stupidity. The answer of stupid is evolutionary benefitting is just fine on the surface, but if you look at the complexity of issues, it is not as clear. And then there is my opinion that i would rather accept some local maxima while some scientists try unconventional stuff than have stupid people always thinking theyre right DKing all the time, because it is exhausting! I know it is not a choice, but if one thinks being and staying stupid is fine, which might be the consequence of "stupidity is evolutionary advantageous", then I would rather fight the premise, because that would not be acceptable to me.

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[-] justhach@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

"You can never truly idiot-proof something, as there will always be a better idiot."

  • source unknown
[-] ilinamorato@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

Quote by a forest ranger at Yosemite National Park on why it is hard to design the perfect garbage bin to keep bears from breaking into it: "There is considerable overlap between the intelligence of the smartest bears and the dumbest tourists."

[-] sanguinepar@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

There's a similar line in a Douglas Adams book:

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools

[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

Reading the comments, it seems that the take on this in a lot of highly voted comments is the highly simplistic "some people are stupid, others are not".

Let me make one thing clear: Intelligence is NOT Wisdom, and whilst the former might make it easier the get the latter, to begin down the path of growing the latter requires an ability to recognize one's lack of it and such ability is dependent on things like self-confidence, self-criticism, ability to practice introspection and possibly a reasonably varied life-experience, most of which barelly correlate with intelligence (and in some cases the correlation is actually negative).

Yes, it's emotionally satisfying for people who see themselves as intelligent (yet can't even recognize the limits of intelligence) to think their greatest quality (worse, one they're born with rather than acquired) makes them immune to that problem, which they thing is because "most people are stupid".

(Funnily enough, more intelligent people are apparently more likely to fall for scams, which would make sense if one they tended to overestimates the power of mere intelligence)

However emotionally satisfying doesn't mean right and a wise person would suspect such self-serving "I'm great because I have this characteristic and it's those who don't have it who are the problem" 'conclusions'.

Personally I think a lot of the manipulation going on nowadays is at an emotional level (just go learn about modern marketing and start playing attention at how branding in TV is mostly creating associations between the brand and certain emotional urges and impulses, for example perfumes with sex and cars with freedom) and an "indoctrinated" subconscious definitelly bypasses intelligence no mater how extraordinary (Hollywood's typical portrayal of exceptional genious is an almst superhumanly wise person - or alternativelly, nutty professor - all very unrealistic).

Also I've known some highly intelligent people who were so unable to accept that even they were non-omiscient humans who made mistakes, that they migt as well be morons (these people are rare though).

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[-] CobblerScholar@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

It's not so simple I think. Anti-intellectualism is a symptom of the greater human condition. Part of it is the scapegoat aspect. If something has a name then it's easy to point a finger at it, easy to blame the person who named it. Part of it is envy, people trying to tear down those who they feel are superior to them. Part of it is propaganda, if not caused by certainly exacerbated by.

Like many things in life it's complicated.

[-] Etterra@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

You forgot laziness. Intellectualism is difficult, and letting your emotions do your thinking is super easy. Then there's the greed, or more accurately the greedy, who will use anti-intellectualism to get what they want from others, be it money, power, or something else.

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[-] Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.ml 23 points 1 year ago

Anti-intellectualism is a strategy employed by some rich people that control some mass media outlets to keep people away from being class conscious.

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[-] ExLisper@linux.community 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wouldn't say "the world" is anti-intellectual, some populists are. The US right is definitely anti-intellectual and they have better PR so you're getting a lot of if in the media. It's because Republican voters are mostly from small towns and not well educated so the party is trying to demonize education as something elitist. It's the same in Poland where the ruling, far-right party's electorate are mostly people from smaller towns and villages. But in Spain where the right wing voters are mostly upper class and well educated and left wing voters are working class you don't see a lot of anti-intellectual rhetoric. For example the anti-vax movement during covid was mostly non-existent here. I think UK is the same: right wing party is the party of well educated voters so they don't promote anti-intellectual ideas.

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[-] jrbaconcheese@yall.theatl.social 17 points 1 year ago

This smells like someone who considers himself an “intellectual” and is sick of people disagreeing with him.

[-] huginn@feddit.it 17 points 1 year ago

That may be the case but it doesn't change the strong current of anti-intellectualism in modern societies.

It's useful to those in power, for example.

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[-] amio@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

This smells like jumping to conclusions.

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[-] jonne@infosec.pub 12 points 1 year ago

Or someone who's seen brexit happen, or the rise of right wing populist parties everywhere that want to ban books and discount expert advice on climate, the economy, etc.

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[-] FrostyTrichs@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I think a lot of anti intellectual thinking is a combination of religious and corporate influence on the world.

Religion more or less teaches that you should believe what you're told, not what you discover or learn for yourself. It's a subtle but powerful way to discourage people from seeking the truths in life because they are genuinely convinced they've found the answer for everything.

Similarly with corporate influence so heavily a part of our lives people are quick to fall into the trap of consumerism. From a young age we are being conditioned to accept that it's normal to have to pay multiple times for the same product and to replace our possessions regularly. The cost of living that way makes the time and expense of continuing education unattainable for the average person, which often leads to bitterness about their situation and anger towards those who are able to work a white collar job or live an easier life.

Both are problems without quickly enacted solutions. People have to be taught to think critically without being put off or angered when they get to topics that contradict what they want to believe.

[-] ThePenitentOne@discuss.online 8 points 1 year ago

It's not unpopular and more so true. Religion is anti-intellectual, and the main abrahamic ones double-dip hard on it. If you ever tried arguing with a religious person about faith, it's incredibly obvious how impactful it is on their critical thinking.

Capitalism also prefers anti-intellectual thinking because it makes people easier to manipulate and exploit into accepting shitty conditions and supporting the system. I think a large cause for the lack of critical thinking and self-reflection is because too many people live a very self-centred life where they consider themselves superior automatically and never take the time to question their beliefs, or if they do, refuse to face contradictions because it's harder than staying the same.

[-] Powerpoint@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago

As long as conservatism exists, no.

[-] just_chill@jlai.lu 15 points 1 year ago

It is tricky to get someone to recognise that they aren't knowlegable enough. Even if you say it as gently as possible, some will still hear "you're dumb" and no one likes that.
Also it's a great tool to manipulate people : "I don't need a scientist trying to explain me life from the depths of their lab !! I have commonsense !!"

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[-] Auzy@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Had a discussion about hydrogen cars on Lemmy the other day

The discussion involved:

  1. Easily provably wrong claims ("Hydrogen isn't getting any support for the government, thats why it's not succeeding"). 2 second google click, and article directly from government showing how they support it.
  2. Kept telling me that a HUGE part of the argument should be ignored (efficiency). Science doesn't allow you to simply ignore parts of the debate. And, the efficiency difference wasn't even a small amount (apparently the difference in efficiency was 30%-40% or more, so not a small amount).
  3. Character attacks against myself and any references I posted (oh, she's a physicist, even they're wrong sometimes).
  4. Conspiracy theories against battery companies or whatever
  5. Nitpicking arguments. I posted a youtube video, and 1 point was incorrect (or outdated). They pretended that invalidated the entire argument (and when i posted references which added credibility to a few of the other arguments, they just dismissed me).
  6. They kept saying "batteries are obsolete and are an old idea". Water pipes are also old, but, they get refined constantly. Batteries are also evolving constantly. This is borderline common sense..
  7. They kept saying I wasn't understandable or rambling or whatever.

The internet has emboldened people who barely passed school because on the internet, they're anonymous and nobody knows who they are. People who know them however in real life would likely ignore their comments.

I think the problem is, its less time consuming to make up nonsense and shout over people, than actually provide accurate, well-referenced information

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[-] Candelestine@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Traditionalism vs new approaches to things will never go away until technological progress at least stops accelerating and levels out a little bit. So, a Star Trek utopia basically, where fundamental physics has largely been nailed down.

That said, education is a separate topic, and has generally been trending in a positive direction for most of the past 4000ish years. This has actually made the conflict harsher, over time imo, as the traditionalists are starting to feel threatened at an existential level. Naturally, they're going to meet that feeling of threat with traditional methods, and I'll just let you consider our human history of conflict resolution methods to consider what that might entail.

We just don't believe in our religious books anymore, though. We used to. And that's a problem for some people. Like, the biggest problem that can exist for them, its about souls and salvation, not this "crude matter" as Yoda would say.

[-] skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

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[-] DeathWearsANecktie@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

Science is the best means by which we can understand the objective truth about the world around us. It's a shame that people are rejecting it in favour of conspiracy and superstition.

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[-] JayJay@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

No, because there are a lot of people who don't care to learn more than they need to and aren't curious to learn more, or they do not want to change their mind and are set in their beliefs.

[-] FISHNETS 9 points 1 year ago

As long as there are financial incentives to keep people being anti-intellectual, we will never see a world where the average person acts in good faith and with good knowledge of the subjects they're talking/debating about.

[-] LongPigFlavor@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The general population is more educated now than in the past, but education alone is not what makes one an intellectual, or rather a good intellectual. Having intellectual virtues what makes one a good intellectual, imo. These virtues include intellectual humility, intellectual courage, intellectual curiosity, intellectual honesty, and intellectual responsibility.

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[-] Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

Most people don't have the capacity so it makes them angry and mistrustful of anything that's perceived to be "smart". Maybe if one is a true intellectual they can make dumb down these concepts so that they can at least get a basic understanding of them.

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this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023
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