Palestine strikes Israel: 22 dead (huge outcry) Israel strikes Palestine: 200 dead (nobody bats an eye)
Israel is a problematic subject with how imbalanced it is handled in media, resembling more propaganda than anything else.
Palestine strikes Israel: 22 dead (huge outcry) Israel strikes Palestine: 200 dead (nobody bats an eye)
Source for only 22 dead? Associated Press is reporting at least 250 people were killed and 1,500 wounded in Israel
According to the United Nations the number of injured and killed has been in imbalance for over a decade.
No party has been innocent in this conflict but I would lean on the side that retaliation and attacks from israel are far more deadly and damaging than from Palestine.
Palestine is trying to exterminate Jews. Full stop. Israel is defending it's very existence and that of the people who live there. The only reason it isn't proportional is because they have a better military, not because Hamas is showing restraint due to some kind of moral high ground. Stop with the both sides bullshit. One side are terrorist , the other side are defending themselves. The terrorists just happen to be weaker in this situation, that doesn't excuse them for being terrorists.
Fuck this one sided bullshit. Israel blockades fucking food imports from entering Palestine, they allow settlers to steal Palestinian homes and territory, and they refuse citizenship to Palestinians who marry Israelis. Israel has been trying to wipe Palestine out for decades. It's rich watching people on lemmy to pretend that the Israelis aren't genocidal terrorists themselves.
Looks like that was updated half an hour before the comment you replied to was made.
And earlier this afternoon 22 was the official count for Israeli deaths, 220ish Palestinians.
So Israel has updated their number, and it looks like Palestine hasn't.
That being said, both sides can pretty much say whatever right now. There's no way to know what it actually is, there's too much chaos for anyone to know.
By the time this escalation ends up, the number would be quite disproportional as ever. And I can tell you for certain on which side the civilian casualties would be at least two times higher, as usual and I am pretty certain you can guess too.
Not supporting Hamas or any civilian casualties here on both sides, but what Israel is usually doing is not exactly diffusing the tension and usually it makes things even worse.
It's almost like Hamas shouldn't go around attacking Israel without expecting retaliation. It isn't the fault of Israel for having a better military.
And those are civilians.
So you think Israel should just accept that a genocidal terrorist organisation attacks its civilian population? Yes, Hamas uses civilians as meat shields but what are the Israelis supposed to do? Let themselves be slaughtered?
Jesus fucking Christ. Terrorist supporters all around here. I'm genuinely disgusted.
This is the same Israel with their elite mossad forces, yes? "Meat shields" are a poor excuse for indiscriminately bombing a city block when you have elite spec ops units. They don't do it because they have no other choice, they do it as a threatening show of force. "Fuck with us and we'll kill anyone even near you".
There's a middle ground that doesn't involve slaughtering innocents.
Any chance you can school me in the rights and wrongs of this situation, I have tried to read up on the situation between Israel and Palestine and I just can't work out who, if anyone is at fault. It just seems like a crazy unresolvable mess.
On the face of it I would just think the solution is to let the Palestinians have their bit of land and be done with it, why is it not that simple?
Also it's really hard to understand who is justified in their actions. I often find myself feeling sorry for the Palestinians but then I see them riding through London celebration the murder of innocent people and it makes it really hard for me to feel sorry for them. Similarly with Israelis, it's horrible that they have innocent civilians murdered but killing 250 in response is just crazy...
I'm not trolling or shit posting I honestly can't work it out.
So, depends on the incident in question who's at fault changes, but the ones with the power to change the situation are Israel and they're not doing that. Indiscriminately killing civilians is never justified, but with how Israel has been treating Palestinians you can understand where the attitude came from. People tend to hate the shit out of their oppressors, especially when those oppressors put them in open air concentration camps.
That aside there's Israeli settlement in the West bank and East Jerusalem, the whole Apartheid thing, y'know it's a long list. Basically Israel created a situation where terrorism and other armed action is the only way to fight back, which predictably caused terrorism.
There's a good Louis Theroux documentary that might give some context.
Tldw, Israelites aren't really respecting the borders - in this doco they send over zealous Jewish people from various countries to buy up and live in properties in these disputed areas to slowly take it over. Palestinians retaliate aggressively, typically violently.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. Unfortunately it is an incredibly murky mess at this point. Say you side with Palestine and say it's their land. Do you then kick out the people who were born on the land after the conflict started? Innocent people who's only crime is the location of their birth? Or do you side with Israel and claim it's their land now and do the same to Palestinians? Where do you put the people you relocate?
I won't pretend to have an answer to that. Just pointing out that either answer has numerous problems which is part of why no solution has been reached yet. Few, if any, solution will be a "win-win". Someone will have to concede, and neither side seems willing to right now.
That said, indiscriminate violence from either side is abhorible. I detest the death of any innocent civilian in all of this. "Two wrongs don't make a right" and all that. Both sides have committed crimes and those responsible should all be held accountable for turning the area into a warzone.
It's an incredibly complex situation, but as a baseline:
Intentionally targeting civilians is unacceptable.
Hamas does this with great pride. It celebrates the slaughter and kidnapping of civilians. It pays the families of terrorists in celebration of their terrorism.
In my opinion, the IDF is remarkably careful not to kill civilians. There have been incidental killings, largely, from my knowledge, when Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas such as homes, mosques, hospitals, and schools. There have been rogue Israeli actors who killed civilians intentionally, and they have mostly been tried and convicted for their crimes. There have been moral failures on behalf of the IDF, but it does generally investigate those failures seriously, rather than celebrating them.
I do sympathize for innocent Palestinians who are doubly oppressed by Hamas and the Israeli occupation, but feel that the occupation is necessary to prevent greater violence against Israeli civilians.
That's about all I can give you without digging into the history.
Anyone who calls the IDF careful about avoiding civilian deaths is either deeply ignorant or arguing in bad faith and seeking to legitimize a highly brutally murderous apartheid regime.
Israel does nothing "indiscriminately." Israel uses lots of advanced technology to try to make sure the buildings it attacks are clear of civilians: both to check the buildings and to warn any potential civilians they might have missed to evacuate. The "middle ground" approach is exactly what the IDF is doing.
Ah yes, perhaps you can check Wikipedia and compare the numbers of civilian casualties and tell us again, how Israel is doing everything to protect the civilians.
The truth is that after each Palestinian attack when you compare the numbers of civilian casualties you can see that they are a couple of times higher on the Palestinian side.
This tactic isn't exactly the one screaming I want to find a long term peace solution. And mind you, I am not defending Hamas here, what they did is horrible, the problem is that neither of the sides is looking for reconciliation, which is sad, and that the innocents are the ones who suffer the most.
Israeli civilian deaths from this attack—which again, was actively, intentionally targeted at civillians—were 250. IIRC, the latest number of Palestinian deaths, including combatants, in 2023, is "over 200."
But I wasn't talking about numbers. I was talking about intent, effort, strategy. Yes, some Palestinian civilians do die as a result of attacks by Israel. Israel tends to be better at protecting its civilians, Hamas intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way. Yes, to some extent, the numbers reflect that.
And by the way, there are also Palestinians dying to friendly fire caused by haphazard rocket fire.
And I said by the time this recent escalation ends. Meaning that this end won't be today as the retaliation of Israel is currently ongoing and surprise surprise civilian casualties numbers are not going to be updated immediately.
Do you really believe that there won't be any retaliation strikes from Israel that won't involve civilian deaths on the Palestinian side? Because if you do you are a fool!
Again not defending Hamas, just saying that seeing only one side of the conflict and what their wrongdoings are isn't the best approach in this case.
The israelis are supposed to respect the israeli/palestinian borders and stop colonizing palestinian land.
what hamas did is terrorism and they need to be brought to justice.
and israeli leaders need to be brought to justice also.
Quick question: why does the innocent victim state have (until today) roughly 20x the casualties of the genocidal terrorist organization?
Even with the updated estimates (as I type this comment, 232 Palestinians dead since the attack and 250 Israelis dead), Israel has killed over 10x the amount of people.
So like... how's that work?
This is an inhuman comment
That's because Hamas is a terrorist organization with the goal of exterminating Jews. The founding documents of Palestine calls for the killing of Jews and repurposing any land they occupied for setting up a Sharia caliphate. No matter how many times you falsely call it apartheid, that doesn't change. They want to kill all Jews.
Please explain like I'm 5 : why Israël doesn't go after military/strategic targets instead of destroying city blocks?
Because this was probably a military target.
A lot of militant groups use civilians as human shields to either completly prevent a strike or a least create bad publicity to spin their propaganda.
There were a lot of Israelis taken into Gaza by force, my guess is they are kept in the most important places to create a moral dilemma.
You either attack and kill your own civilians or let the enemy have undisturbed action.
Israel and the Occupied Territories: Shielded from scrutiny: IDF violations ... https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/mde151432002en.pdf
Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel: U.N. | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620
I just thought I'd add this to counter the usual one sided view on the matter.
Gaza doesn't have anything else. It is not a country, it is a concentration camp and it in general is not permitted to have anything resembling an organized self defense.
It makes it easier to bulldoze over their towns on Ramadan and then act shocked when some of them retaliate during your high holiday.
Israel could simply stop settling the land that doesn't belong to them and exterminating Palestinians, and Hamas could stop lashing out and killing Israelis but the only way that happens is if the political leadership of those two selfishly monstrous regimes were to simply all die.
There can be no peace as long as one country is allowed to make another into an apartheid state while they ethnically cleanse the population from land they feel entitled to control.
City blocks are military targets when your goal is to get rid of people living there.
The correct answer is that Hamas purposely launches these attacks from city block, schools, hospitals, etc which is literally a war crime so when there is retaliation they can cry foul. Don't believe terrorist apologist.
Have you ever looked at a map of Gaza, the place is all civilian infrastructure, they have to operate from inside it there's no other choice the place is completely overpopulated. Which very much makes it not a war crime as the Geneva convention is about avoiding avoidable civilian casualties, not unavoidable ones.
Shooting rockets indiscriminately is definitely an avoidable action. They don't have to do it. Unfortunately people do need to defend themselves from Israel but the rockets are just to inflict suffering.
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