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submitted 1 month ago by Gsus4@mander.xyz to c/technology@lemmy.world
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[-] thericofactor@sh.itjust.works 139 points 1 month ago

Sodium ion batteries have less energy density as opposed to Lithium ion (100-150 WH per Kg instead of 150-250). I'm curious how much these "wet" batteries improve that. The article doesn't say.

Nonetheless, even if it's not the new battery for your car, it could be useful as energy storage for the grid, storing green (solar) energy for the night, and desalinating seawater at the same time.

[-] chocrates@piefed.world 56 points 1 month ago

We hear about a new battery chemistry like every week. Do most never get to commercialization?

[-] apftwb@lemmy.world 63 points 1 month ago

They mostly these articles are showing new avenues for research. Most are deadends usually due to issues with production/scalability.

Sodium Ions batteries are coming to market, however the issue is that Lithium Ion are just improving faster and making it harder for Sodium Ion batteries to compete.

[-] Jesus_666@lemmy.world 31 points 1 month ago

Unless other situations where the established technology wins due to inertia, sodium ion batteries have two benefits that make them interesting regardless:

Firstly, they are safer. A punctured sodium ion battery doesn't catch fire, which massively simplifies safety design. That makes them very attractive for certain scenarios, especially ones where density is a secondary concern. That in turn means they get further development money instead of withering on the vine.

Secondly, they require fewer hard-to-obtain materials, which makes them attractive from a strategic perspective. This one should be less important than the safety factor but it's also relevant.

I'm pretty sure we'll actually see wet sodium cells in the wild if they are actually practical. Sodium ion tech is already being commercialized and if this brings it within the same ballpark as lithium ion then it becomes a very interesting choice for vehicles due to instant crash safety gains.

[-] 0tan0d@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

They also perform better in the cold making them a better choice for EVs in cold regions. This is why I think CATL saw the videos of cars getting killed by cold and pulled the trigger on retooling even with the lithium price crash.

[-] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 month ago

Not to mention from a human rights perspective, it's not just easier to obtain sodium than lithium but also more humane.

There is an industry for ethically-sourced materials, and even if this doesn't completely replace lithium it can still significantly reduce the amount needed to meet demand, which can also encourage more ethical practices in that supply chain too, such as sourcing it from areas with stronger labor laws.

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[-] WanderingThoughts@europe.pub 13 points 1 month ago

One in ten of chemistries in the lab work in real world conductions. One in ten of those are cheap enough to consider production. One in ten of those can scale up to mass manufacturing. Most research works like that. You have to keep going until you hit jackpot.

[-] meco03211@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

R&d on these I'm guessing takes a little while. And it greatly depends on what niche they fill. Like the poster above said these might have lower density. For applications that move, that's not usually good. How sensitive are they to hot and cold? That could necessitate thermal management.

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[-] apftwb@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

the strategy of retaining crystal interlayer water yielded a specific capacity of 280 mA h g−1 at 10 mA g−1, one of the highest capacities reported for SIB cathodes in literature.

All I could find. This isn't a statement about capacity(?) Units are wrong(?)

Its worth noting how preliminary this research is. Currently these "batteries" are just jars with chemicals.

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/Content/ArticleLanding/2025/TA/D5TA05128B

https://www.rsc.org/suppdata/d5/ta/d5ta05128b/d5ta05128b2.mp4

[-] UniversalBasicJustice@quokk.au 11 points 1 month ago

Fairly sure those units are milliamp•hour per gram which makes sense for energy density.

[-] finalarbiter@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

mAh/g (milliamp-hours per gram) is essentially still a measurement of capacity, but in terms of current instead of power.

We can do a little dimensional analysis here to translate between them. Power = Current x Voltage, so you'd multiply this (Current x Time)/(Weight) value by the nominal voltage of the cell to get to (Power x Time)/(Weight).

Phone batteries are often specified in units of Current*Time (e.g. milliamp-hours), but I'm not completely sure why. I think it has to do with voltages being standardized for certain types of cells, so the only real variable in the battery capacity is the current.

Edit: rearranged some ideas to make more sense

[-] Wispy2891@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

I’m not completely sure why

I think it's marketing

5000 mAh is much a bigger number than 19 Wh and marketing loves huge numbers

Kinda like BMW did with the i3.

In 2013 Tesla was selling a model with a 60 kWh battery so BMW had the genius idea to install a 20 kWh battery BUT refer to it as "60 Ah" battery.

Tesla introduced the 90 kWh battery? BMW responds with a 94 Ah battery (28 kWh)

Newest Tesla has 100 kWh battery now? BMW has 120 Ah battery (38 kWh)

"See? Higher number!", says the marketing

And in order to have a comparable range number they had to implement heavy weight reduction techniques like using carbon fiber for the body, negating any cost saving from the smaller battery AND giving the owner a total loss after small collisions as it shatters instead of bending

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[-] fartographer@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

And instead of charging them, you can drink them! Unlike Lithium Ion batteries, which you have to chew.

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[-] iopq@lemmy.world 99 points 1 month ago

Desalinating water might be the best part. Usually, solar power has the downside of needing storage and desalination has the downside of big energy requirements. If you can do both at the same time, it's a big win for dry climates with lots of sun

[-] FlyForABeeGuy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 1 month ago

There is also the issue with the salt by itself in desalinisation. If it's removed with water, you have to deal with that stuff. Table salt is really cheap and there is plenty of offer,, so you can't really economically clean it enough and package it for human consumption or industrial use. So what usually happens is that they dump it back at one moment or another. And that is a hard pollution, and can lead to dead zones around the desalinisation plants if not managed well enough. Being able to add it in a high demand product such as batteries takes all those hurdles away

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[-] defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com 83 points 1 month ago

I can only hope these can actually hit commercialization, unlike most new battery technologies that never leave the lab.

[-] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 101 points 1 month ago

Yes, because battery technology stagnated years ago...

Oh wait

[-] Frozentea725@feddit.uk 50 points 1 month ago

Great response, people just love to parrot easy dismissals without looking and the sheer magnitude on innovation and commercialisation going on in this sector

[-] tb_@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago

It doesn't really dispute it, though. Lithium-ion has seen a lot of improvement, yes, because it's already a giant industry; other battery chemistries have a hard time breaking through because they require entirely different processes to manufacture.
I'm still rooting for it, but it's not really the same thing.

[-] Buffalox@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

This too is false, great progress has been made on for instance solid state batteries.

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[-] echodot@feddit.uk 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Well all those graphs show is that the cost of batteries has gone down and that as a result electric cars contain more batteries and therefore more range. It doesn't actually show that the individual battery capacity has increased.

The third graph that indicates battery performance vs battery chemistry doesn't really show incremental improvement it just shows general improvement but there's plenty of battery chemistries that are worse than pre-existing ones.

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[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

TBF, there are a lot of "battery breakthroughs" that turn out to just be hot air. Battery technology has made tremendous progress though and there is still a lot of room for improvement.

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[-] CaptPretentious@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

Weird, I didn't know Lithium-Ion batteries were still in the lab. I thought for sure we were using those already. I thought the batteries in the labs were various solid-state batteries like graphene or like this sodium-ion battery, where there's been a rise in patents around it but not a lot delivered

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[-] Damage@feddit.it 22 points 1 month ago

I can only hope one day people will stop repeating reddit clichés

[-] Reygle@lemmy.world 60 points 1 month ago

Every week with the "miracle battery!" headlines. This has been going on for ages and I'm sick of it.

[-] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 33 points 1 month ago

Sodium-ion batteries are not hype though, they are in production use in multiple industries already. They are generally superior to Lithium based batteries in all regards, with the exception of having a bit lower energy density. An equivalent LiFePO4 battery might be 70-80% of the size for the same storage. It's not a big deal for large applications like cars and solar storage.

[-] J92@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah, the advantages of all these sodium batteries, in my mind, is that they are stable and rugged enough to build up a backbone of a energy storage system for a grid. I'm seriously thinking about them for my house, in the UK.

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[-] froh42@lemmy.world 44 points 1 month ago

TWICE AS MUCH COMPARED TO WHAT????

My left ball?

[-] rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world 34 points 1 month ago

To answer your question we'll need to conduct a series of electrical tests on your left ball. Please report to the lab as soon as possible, and wear loose pants.

[-] froh42@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Oooh, kinky.

[-] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

You really need a statistical baseline on a population of left nuts.

Should set up a PPV website to offset costs of the study.

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[-] freepizza4life@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Compared to a non-hydrous sodium vanadium oxide system.

[-] froh42@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

Yep, I'm just annoyed by lazy headlines.

[-] nek0d3r@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 month ago

YOU WON'T BELIEVE ~~Actor Joins Film~~

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[-] nek0d3r@lemmy.dbzer0.com 32 points 1 month ago
[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We are close to finding out why some liquids are blue.

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[-] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 month ago

You can throw any battery in the ocean. The better question is should you?

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[-] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 29 points 1 month ago

Finally a new one!

It was too quiet during the whole last year. But before, we had about 2 revolutionary new battery technologies every week.

[-] dukemirage@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

Would you prefer researchers to not publish results?

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[-] Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 month ago

Yeah I'll take this seriously when it enters commercial service.

[-] SirMaple__@lemmy.ca 27 points 1 month ago
[-] turdburglar@piefed.social 8 points 1 month ago

i’ll take 10 please.

[-] Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.

These new lithium-ion batteries get to 300-400Wh/kg range.

We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density. Do you really want to carry 100g of TNT in your pocket or few tons of TNT in vehicle going 100km/h.

Of course things are not directly comparable, but ball parks.

[-] pupbiru@aussie.zone 14 points 1 month ago

i’d say stability is more important than energy density

like gasoline has more than 10x the energy density than tnt and we’re perfectly fine with many kg of that on a vehicle going 100km/h

a fully fueled vehicle is the equivalent of ~600kg of TNT, but it’s very stable whilst TNT is not

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[-] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 11 points 1 month ago

Yeah but firewood is like 5 kwh/kg, or 4 times the energy density of TNT. We drive around with wood in our cars all the time.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

TNT has 1162 Wh/kg ratio.

How do you recharge TNT?

We are hitting the limit what is doable with energy density.

I mean, we're definitely running into a problem of how you build a battery without also building a bomb. But the entire point of TNT is rapid thermal expansion. The point of a battery is very low voltage steady release of electrical charge.

I might also note that C4 has around 6 Mwh/kg. A bit of applied chemistry can go a long way to improving energy efficiency. And that's before you take advantage of geometry to focus pressure, via a shaped charge.

Point being, there's a lot of clever ways to juice a lemon. We're a long way from the end of the road on battery improvement.

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this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2026
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