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submitted 1 month ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

France is to enshrine in law the end of so-called "conjugal rights" – the notion that marriage means a duty to have sex.

A bill approved on Wednesday in the National Assembly adds a clause to the country's civil code to make clear that "community of living" does not create an "obligation for sexual relations".

The proposed law also makes it impossible to use lack of sexual relations as an argument in fault-based divorce.

Though unlikely to have a major impact in the courts, supporters hope the law will help deter marital rape.

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Overall, I think this is a good idea.

My thoughts on the part about removing refusal of intimacy as justification of divorce are more nuanced, however - and partially informed from anecdotal experience.

[-] Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world 72 points 1 month ago

Yeah it's a whole different argument.

Being married does not entitle you to sex - great.

Wanting to divorce because not enough sex - fine.

It's not so much that you felt the other person was obligated to provide the sex (though probably this is th real arhument) but more that it just turned out you are not that compatible or you just grew apart. Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

[-] wpb@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

They absolutely should, and they will still be able to, nothing's changed there.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 37 points 1 month ago

No, no, there's a big change here.

Yes, divorces still go through as before, that doesn't change. What does change is the context of fault in the divorce.

If sex is a marital obligation, the party refusing it can be considered at fault for the marriage failing. This usually carries consequences when it comes to splitting the assets, with the judges usually penalising the party "at fault".

This makes it so that refusing to have sex cannot be grounds for being found at fault, and makes things more balanced.

[-] wpb@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yes this is correct, we're in complete agreement there. The comment I was responding to worded it vaguely though, which made it sound like you cannot get a divorce because you have a sexless marriage. It made it sound like people were being forcibly kept married, which is false. You can get divorced because it's Tuesday, or because the moon is in retroflux. Holding your spouse responsible for those things is a different story, however.

For reference here's the part of the comment I replied to:

Should a person not be allowed to divorce if they fell out of love with their partner, ergo they turned out to have less or no more sex?

Emphasis mine.

I admit I worded my comment vaguely because I was rather tired and wasn’t sure how I should express the nuance I feel around that. But to fix that:

In my experience, going from a reasonable, mutually healthy level of intimacy to one party just completely lacking interest is essentially never the core issue in play, but it is an exacerbating issue. For instance, with my ex, who I was with for five years: for the first couple years, things were pretty great. Then she ended up slipping into perhaps the worst long-term episode of severe depression and video game addiction I have ever seen in my life. I’m talking 12-14h at least a day in a KRPG, completely withdrawing from IRL social interaction (including with me, for the most part) and supplanting it with constantly being on voice chat with the various clans she was a part of over time in the game. Mind you, I enjoy gaming myself, and have struggled with overdoing in the past as well, but never to this extent in terms of length and severity. And despite trying to find numerous ways to help/support her, encouraging her to find different and better therapists and psychiatrists, and figuring out how to rebalance her meds - including offering to just be on the phone with me for 30 seconds at the beginning of the call and just saying “I give permission for my partner to discuss this stuff with you and try to find a better solution because my mental state prohibits me from doing that right now”, being effectively unable to make any motion in a positive mental health direction. To the point that it got so bad that I became severely depressed and began aggressively self medicating, eventually to the point that I realized staying in the dynamic would probably kill me, in a very literal sense. She would barely come out of her room for dinner towards the end, and I was absolutely not about to get her to just let me “use” her for intimate gratification when the chemistry was completely gone and she was gonna just lie there like a fish - I’d have felt like I was assaulting her, and I refuse to do that.

So: no, it shouldn’t be the grounds for a divorce (or partner separation, I happen to not give a shit about marriage outside of the context of tax benefits, but I take a committed partnership very seriously), but it can and should be considered an exacerbating circumstance in a relationship that has extremely serious, long-lasting problems that essentially put everything into a death spiral.

Also: I’m sharing this for context and nuance as an explanation of my opinion. I’m not asking for or desiring feedback or constructive (or otherwise) criticism or judgement. Me explaining this is an infinitesimal fraction of the lived experience of it, like you saying your partner is “pretty cool”, when there are myriad shades of nuance to a partnership. It is a closed chapter of my life, and I am better for it.

[-] nodiratime@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

I was with you until the last have sentence. How does it make things more balanced?

Women are known to weaponize/withhold intimacy as a form of punishment. If anything, this tips the balance in favor of women even further, as is tradition with most legal frameworks.

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

In what universe do you live in? Because in this one, it's not the men who are being beaten, abused and raped in their own home by their own partner, is it? Look up surveys and studies, if you find this in any way surprising.

I fail to see your problem with "withholding intimacy". Nobody is forced to consent to anything, and if someone no longer wants to have sex with you, then that relationship has very serious problems.

Lack of sex is a symptom, not the cause, and if you think it's being used to "punish you", then you need to take a step back and have a very long think about what is going on from your partner's perspective. If you're unable to do that, then find help - a therapist, a psychologist, a councillor, someone that is unbiased and that can help provide insights.

Ultimately, you may come to the realisation that your partner and you have needs that the other is not willing or able to meet, and that it's time to go separate ways. Or you may both come out of it with a better understanding of each other, and live happier lives because of it.

But let me tell you, the fact that you assume that you're being punished because you're not getting sex, that's one massive red flag.

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[-] Prime@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 month ago

Uh... Does this imply that in a sexless marriage one is allowed to have sex with a third party without incurring fault?

[-] ByteJunk@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago

NO. It is, quite literally, the opposite. How do you misinterpreted it that badly?

A marriage is a legal contract, and it binds the parties to mutual support, fidelity, respect, and cohabitation.

This serves to clarify that sex is NOT included in that list of obligations, but do note that fidelity IS. You don't get to get to justify cheating with "I wasn't getting any...".

That said, the parties are obviously free to come to an agreement on what works best for them - and if that includes extramarital sex, then that's fine as long as both agree.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

I think of it like housework. No one should be compelled by the law to do housework. But if one person in the house is doing no housework, the others have a real and justified complaint. It’s not legal grounds for eviction, but it should be a material point against them in any dispute mediation that takes place.

To translate that: if one party in a marriage is withholding sex, they don’t get to claim a full 50% right to all the assets in the marriage. I’m not saying zero, but…

[-] 3rdXthecharm@lemmy.ml 17 points 1 month ago

Exactly why this law needs made clear:

No one is entitled to sex

'Withholding sex' isn't a mark against someone in a divorce and in no way should it be a factor in whether someone is entitled to their fair share of the fruits of a shared life should it come to an end.

If sex is housework, sleeping with that person is a chore, and god if that's not the world we live in anymore.

[-] scarabic@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Don’t take an analogy literally. That’s bad faith.

And if you don’t think marriage is a stated intention to have a sexual relationship, then we simply disagree. But your opinion, much as I honor it, is your own innovation.

[-] Slatlun@lemmy.ml 46 points 1 month ago

Fault divorce makes you prove that harm is being done thus a divorce is needed. This is removing no sex as a fault. I think there are usually financial ramifications from being the at fault spouse. Thus there would be financial repercussions for refusing to have sex with someone. Obviously a bad thing.

There is a thing called no-fault divorce that requires no proof of harm. I don't know if France has this, but it is how you get around needing any reason besides that one spouse wants to.

[-] AmidFuror@fedia.io 18 points 1 month ago

As long as "I don't like her anymore" is an acceptable reason, it won't have a practical effect. But if you have to file according to a narrow set of categories like infidelity and abuse, that's a problem.

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 12 points 1 month ago

They did say it would be removed as a reason for "fault-based" divorce, not divorce generally. You won't be able to say "he's at fault for not wanting sex" and so get a preferential settlement.

[-] bossito@lemmy.world 57 points 1 month ago

A huge victory for the assexual community.

[-] Quilotoa@lemmy.ca 33 points 1 month ago

I was surprised to see it existed in France. I tried to search for other countries that have that particular kind of law, but only found general areas, not specific countries.

It was a quite debated matter amongside law specialists, if i remember my time learning it. Like there was an obligation of community in the text, translated as an obligation of sexuality in jurisprudence since more than a century, but some recent interpretation of it were far more tolerant. I remember one case where judges ruled that a lesbian woman married to an asexual man for the apparences, and both living their sexual lives separately was still proper marriage because they cared for each other. Still was kind of an exception though, i'm happy to see it change officially at last.

[-] northernlights@lemmy.today 25 points 1 month ago

As a French, it's about time

[-] eletes@sh.itjust.works 23 points 1 month ago

Honeyyy it's time for our state mandated sex!

[-] tetris11@feddit.uk 4 points 1 month ago

*Pulls out state-mandated condom and state mandated vibrator*

[-] yermaw@sh.itjust.works 21 points 1 month ago

impossible to use lack of sexual relations as an argument in fault-based divorce

Is it an acceptable argument in other kinds of divorce? Ive never had to look into it so I don't know nearly any of the rules, also not French, but that seems like a pretty good excuse to me?

[-] jaybone@lemmy.zip 28 points 1 month ago

Yeah I don’t get this part. Preventing marital rape is a good thing.

But then why force people to stay married if they are unhappy with the sexual situation? Seems like this would have the opposite of the desired effect.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 47 points 1 month ago

In a "fault" divorce, it could allow people to use the obligation of a spouse to perform sexual acts as a way to assign blame in the divorce. Basically allowing one partner to claim harm and therefore pursue financial damages or even leverage in custody disputes because they were owed sex. It trapped people in situations where they were forced to have sex or face potential civil penalties if their partner refused a no-fault divorce.

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[-] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It’s that the lack of sex can’t be used as a reason for a fault-based divorce. A fault based divorce can have legal consequences for things like alimony and child custody.

People can still separate via a no-fault divorce.

[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 4 points 1 month ago

They're saying it can't be used as a reason for assigning blame in a divorce. Infidelity is a classic example of when someone can be "at fault" and so assigned blame for the marriage ending.

"No-fault" divorce exists for situations where the relationship is no longer tenable but not because anyone did anything damaging.

[-] explodicle@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 month ago

You don't need any argument in no-fault divorce. IMHO that's how it should work everywhere; it's not like you need to prove your case in court to get married in the first place.

[-] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 13 points 1 month ago

The other kind of divorce is no-fault divorce. You don't have to give a reason there, you silly goose!

[-] gustofwind@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

Only rational civil unions should exist and have whatever legal powers the people involved deem necessary so long as they aren’t against public policy

Marriage should not be a recognized institution and should be relegated to the halls of religious extremists

[-] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago

There are less hyperbolic ways to say marriage shouldn't carry various legal benefits over civil unions just because it's more or less become a tradition.

This reads like someone showing up for Christmas dinner with the family and tearing down the decorations because they don't like how commercialized the holiday has become.

[-] gustofwind@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago

It took until 2026 for France to remove the sex requirement of marriage

Don’t pretend it’s some innocent institution

It should be scrapped entirely as a legal mechanism and replaced wherever possible

[-] JoshuaFalken@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

I didn't pretend marriage is universally innocent. I said it's a tradition just like hanging colourful lights on a tree within a home in December, and that it's just as aggressive to state everyone be rid of their decorations as that the concept of marriage should be abolished.

I didn't say I thought you were wrong - I said the initial comment read a bit hot off the stove.

[-] gustofwind@lemmy.world 10 points 1 month ago

It’s not just a tradition it’s a tradition that actively creates and informs legal rules anchored to that tradition

Your analogy between the enduring institution of marriage with Christmas lights is simply false

https://www.logical-fallacy.com/articles/false-analogy/

[-] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Your argument seems more against religion (and inferrably monogamy) than it does marriage itself. Especially if "civil union" is your alternative.

I don't see what the benefit would be to just go through the family law and replace the term "marriage" with "civil union".

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[-] Modern_medicine_isnt@lemmy.world 8 points 1 month ago

Is adultery illegal in France? Is it still cause for a fault-based divorce? While I very much agree with the change they are making, I think refusal to have sex should rule out adultery as a cause for fault based divorce. Just seems wrong to say you can't have sex with anyone other thatn this one person who won't have sex with you, so you are at fault if you have sex... horrible wording, but I think y'all get what I am saying.

[-] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 month ago

What if one partner wants a divorce because the other partner was having sex with other people due to there being no sex within the marriage?

I can see not being able to divorce someone (at fault or whatever it's called) just because they don't want to have sex, but would they then be able to divorce you (at fault) if you seek it elsewhere and are open about it?

Just curious as it would be an interesting situation.

[-] Nebraska_Huskers@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

I don't agree with this at all. If you are a very sexual person and suddenly your partner isn't thats not your fault and you have a right to be happy with someone else if you so choose

[-] nevetsg@aussie.zone 8 points 1 month ago

This is what No-fault divorce is for.
I think about it all too often...

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 7 points 1 month ago

There are several concepts you may wish to read up on, such as polyamory and divorce.

[-] DeadDigger@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 month ago

Except that is exactly what this law states - that you can onesidedly divorce based on a sexless marriage. So now you cant divorce for fault and need your spouses approval

[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That.. is not how any of this works. You can totally divorce even if your spouse refuses. There's mutual consent, at fault, mutual acceptance of marital breakdown (irreconcilable differences), and definitive severance- i.e, you are no longer living as a couple.

As a side note, it's fucking hilarious that your worst possible imaginary scenario is what's been actual reality for most women until extremely recently.

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[-] azr79@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago

didn't even know it was a law in france

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this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2026
597 points (100.0% liked)

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