the whole de-federating thing is seriously turning me off to the whole concept of lemmy, it's like little dictators with their sceptres cutting off entire communities from each other. it's a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it's not going to work
it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work
Defederation is an important tool for admins (e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
Hopefully admins realise over time it's stupid to defederate over trivial stuff, and it causes users to revolt and possibly a decline in your server's activity.
Also, make sure you complain to your admin if they do this, or just leave and go to a new server.
(e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
I'm extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.
If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.
This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.
Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
Who would be "dealing with them one by one"? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.
I'm extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude.. You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance..
You are not entiteled to any of this.. You don't have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don't earn any money from you..
Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about "authority" because you don't want to/can't deal with potentially illegal shit on your server..
If you are so concerned about "authority" and about "what you see on your feed", start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it's users or something like that.. You can very very easily do that..
If you don't want someone to decide who you can connect with, you can spin your own instance. Otherwise every instance has admins that aren't you
No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren't "just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard"
Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?
Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.
If you're uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.
You seem to be saying that moderation actions should be performed against users, not instances. You're not getting that instances ARE users. On a network where anyone can create an instance, and then as many accounts on that instance as they like, moderating accounts from a hostile instance is POINTLESS.
Two things.
First, you can opt to follow that instance still, but I don't know why you would want to hang out with a bunch of Nazis.
Second, I liken it to cutting out a cancerous growth. If you have an instance infested with Nazis and those Nazis are not being stopped due to a lack of admin and/or mods or worse actively being promoted by an admin then defederate them to keep the Nazis from spreading.
Look at the incel and redpill movements that happened on Reddit. Failure to act quick enough helped the movements grow. They were vitriolic to most people but most of them didn't break any rules. They were destructive in nature and validated misogyny but Reddit didn't act until it was a very vocal and well established community on its platform. Now, even after closing down their major subreddits, those users who weren't the most extreme still actively espouse the values of those communities and have created new subreddits.
Or in this case Beehaw has some very progressive ideals, with rules that require a lot more active moderation, they can't handle the influx of everyone jumping ship from Reddit. Instead of leaving the gate open for people who will ignore the rules it's better to shut it and open a smaller "apply to join" door creating a protective barrier from individuals that may be Nazis.
In closing, I've both been a shitty redditor and seen shitty redditors and I appreciate that the fediverse has tools to decouple and recouple as needed. And again, if you like hanging out with Nazis that instance still exists and you can willingly hang out with Nazis.
If Nazi content is something you don't want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.
Eh, if it were easier to block an instance as a user, I'd be 100% with you instead of 95%.
There are instances that are batshit crazy. Since blocking an instance as a user just ain't possible yet, I can see why defederation before trouble gets going is useful. Once the nasty side of the internet gets snowballing, it's much harder to manage.
Troll, or serious extremist, some things are just cancerous.
These are good points but apparently it was just a community on that instance... The instance itself wasn't the problem. You can in fact block a community as a user. People absolutely have the power to block the_Donald community on that instance on their own.
People can block communities right? That might make more sense than just severing connections to other servers completely?
See, that would be such a better option. Let individual users block servers from appearing for them alone in any interactive sense. The Beehaw defederation was not only terrible timing, but it exposed the biggest achilles heel of this whole idea.
You’d think the concept of letting users choose their instance would also apply to letting the user choose to block or not. It’s not like the entire instance is full of Donald users, just one crappy part of it.
So you would prefer massive dictators with a profit motive instead? Because that's the alternative you are advocating for.
The entire point of federation as a tool of decentralisation is to address the issue of Spez, Musk, Zuckerberg and so on. Massive corporate dictators of the internet.
The solution is to split up the massive dictators into lots and lots of smaller ones, who can federate with who they want to in order to make a bigger space, and ultimately provide you with the choice of which approach you like better. It ultimatley allows all of these spaces to shut out corporate advertising as well because if McDonalds ever makes a fucking instance everyone will defederate that shit to get away from the advertising immediately.
If you like the mega dictators better. Reddit is over there. I assume you do not, because that's why you left it.
This is why I'm happy to be on my own private instance and part of what really turned me on to Lemmy. It's trivial to spin up your own instance if you're technically inclined. You have complete control over what you see and aren't subject to some power hungry admin on some server like Beehaw. That's what makes the fediverse so great imo
I was trying to set up my own 0.17.4 instance for a week. I have used docker professionally. 0.17.4 wasn't trivial to set up. The instructions were full of errors and omissions. I basically had to rewrite the whole docker-compose.yml myself.
Of course, right when I was at the finish line, they released 0.18.0 and rewrote the instructions, and now it gets you 90% of the way right out of the box. There was still one omission to pull an nginx config file, and then you need to get your own certificate and add it to that config file (or use a reverse proxy, but I have no need for that at the moment).
At least it's much easier than it was 3 days ago.
If I didn't already have a bunch of shit running in containers that I don't want to risk messing up, I would have looked into using their Ansible instructions. But I really don't like running scripts on my server (especially as root!) unless I know everything that it's doing.
People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.
You are all perfect, but our admins are awful.
They also don't have experience in running this federation thing like we don't have in using it.
This is all in R&D mode, both for code and for running community.
Express your opinions, since that is the only way things can change, but have some understanding for people running the show.
People in this thread look like they never mada a mistake doing something for the first time.
I mean 90% of this community is now Redditors so are you really surprised with the attitude?
thank god someone else is finding humor in this too. i laughed at the sheer absurdity of half the comments in that thread. people can really easily lose all sense of proportion
Any link to that thread? I'm out of the loop
https://lemmy.fmhy.ml/post/265796
here you go, keep in mind that it's 2 days old so probably best not to comment on it and shake up a pot that's now settled. just sit back, read and laugh instead
(wish i could give you a properly formatted link that would load the post in your instance instead of booting you off-site, but as of now i don't think there's syntax that lets you share proper links to posts, like there is with communities. does each instance just number every post on the network by itself? so far that's what it's been looking like to me)
I'm out of the loop, what happened?!
One person created the_donald over there and people are getting butthurt.
Hey jas sh.itjust.works actually been defederated with many major instances yet or are there just murmurs? I'm confused what happens because I'm on lemmy.ml and I still see sh.itjust.works content, but then I'm actively subscribed to some communities there. My understanding with defederation is that you no longer see anything from a given instance in the "all" section vs the "local" section (where you only have seen stuff from your home instance anyway). That makes sense, but what about my subscriptions. If I'm actively subscribed do I still get content from defederated instances or is that all just gone?
No no, nothing happened. It was all angry discussion by crowds who didn't know anything. The problems were solved very fast and no one ended up unhappy except for the troll.
It sucks because Sh.itjustworks is generally a pretty good place, people trying some good things like the Agora. Then I take a look a few minutes later and it's like the Donald Glover pizza meme all over again.
If I'm actively subscribed do I still get the content [...]?
No, the whole point of defed is that your home instance stops "listening" to the updates of the defederated instance. So you'd stop getting updates from any community hosted on @sh.itjust.works period.
