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submitted 1 year ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.de
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[-] fer0n@lemm.ee 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I‘m sure it’s not as simple, but my first take on this was: Europe doesn’t invest in EVs, but China does. They start to loose the Chinese market and are about to loose their own market to China as well. Then politics steps in to "rescue" their own companies but all that does is shelter them from the pressure to adapt and evolve, and in the end they’re beyond hope and left in the dust while the advanced Chinese cars dominate everything.

Countering subsidies with import taxes is a different story ofc. But it certainly feels like the European car industry is in decline and it’s probably their own fault. If not in Europe most certainly in China.

I should add that I have no idea what I’m talking about here, so feel free to tell me where I’m wrong.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 31 points 1 year ago

China has been doing this for centuries now. You couldnt even break into the chinese consumer space if the CCP decides that you might be a danger to their own industry.
So it's kinda hypocritical to now claim the EU is doing something because its china.

[-] sizzler@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Take a look at what VW did to the British car market with illegal subsidies from the German Government. Then look at VW being caught in the emissions scandle. Long story short, cheating is profitable.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

British car manufacturers didn't need Germany to dismantle themselves. The only reason you even have a car industry left is because German companies came in, bought up those husks of mismanagement out of (near) bankruptcy, and turned them around.

Long story short: Don't let nobs run your companies. They were as good at deciding what customers want as Homer Simpson is at designing a car and caused strike after strike by being, well, arrogant nobs telling the peasants to eat cake.

[-] sizzler@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

Correct, that was the thinking what had happened at the time but when you realise VWs were being sold about 5k below market cost you realise there was no competing. Look deeper.

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago

If you mean "German cars were cheaper" there's an easy explanation: Unlike the UK ones German manufacturers managed to introduce automation by negotiating its introduction with the workers, who realised that it's necessary to keep the industry but got concessions such as automation first being used for the most back-breaking stuff, not what would save the most money. Meanwhile, in the UK, well, strikes. Strikes, strikes, and strikes.

I'd like to see a source on the below market cost bit, and even if why didn't the UK simply outlaw it. But yes German industry played it fast and loose back then, e.g. it didn't became illegal under German law to bribe foreigners abroad until 2000, on the contrary you would get a tax write-off. Not like the UK operated a different regime, though, you simply weren't as good at it when it came to cars. You're more into the tax haven kind of business, shuffling money discretely to crown dependencies which unlike manufacturing is not dependent on riffraff workers.

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[-] crispy_kilt@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

The Germans and the French wrecked British car manufacturers because they were better, not because of subsidies. British cars at the time sucked.

[-] sizzler@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

You do get that those two things are related right?

[-] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 12 points 1 year ago

It is not like European companies are not investing into EVs, but that EVs are different. The big advantage is battery technology, but most batteries are bought from third parties. Only Tesla and BYD have large battery production of their own. So everybody else buys them from other companies. So it is hard to be better on that technological front. The rest is a generally nice interior and software. Interior is something Europeans can do, but it has relativly little value add. What is more important is software and that is difficult for manufacturing based companies like traditional car companies.

This is not to say that European companies can not win this or lack innovation. They make good EVs, but so do the Chinese and that means a war on price. Europe is in a disadvantage on that. However there are solutions being planned like large battery plants by European manufacturers and better software development.

[-] Venat0r@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

It is not like European companies are not investing into EVs

Only Tesla and BYD have large battery production of their own

These two statements seem at odds...

Also volkswagen are building factories and bmw are doing partnerships or something. But yeah, they should've been doing that 10 years ago...

[-] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago

EVs are more the just batteries and both Volkswagen and BMW have set up production lines for EVs they developed themself. That is certainly investment. However they are using batteries from other companies. They are catching up with tesla and BYD by also setting up battery factories now. It is a bit late, but maybe not too late.

[-] fer0n@lemm.ee 38 points 1 year ago

TL;DR: The European Commission is launching an anti-subsidy investigation into Chinese electric vehicle makers, potentially leading to higher import duties. This move aims to protect Europe's auto industry and address concerns of dependency on China. If Chinese EVs are found to have an unfair advantage due to subsidies, it could impact their growth in Europe and lead to retaliatory measures. The investigation reflects growing geopolitical tensions and could influence the global EV market. (via ChatGPT)

[-] febra@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Maybe Europe should step up its game and actually finally start producing proper EVs for accessible prices. I'm sorry, but banning chinese EVs won't save us from climate change. This is a move to save the european billionaire class that owns all of these companies that refuse to innovate here. I say: let the chinese bring their EVs over. It's capitalism after all :) Let them compete. Wasn't that the story they kept telling us? About how competition breeds innovation? Funny how that is no longer the case now that true competition exists and not just a bunch of european car manufacturers that make up a monopoly to keep us buying their shitty expensive cars.

[-] Jode@midwest.social 38 points 1 year ago

Sure do this. But maybe at the same time see where these western manufacturers are profiting excessively and get that under control too because these electric cars are too damn expensive. At least here in the US they are.

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

The ICE aren't any better. My god, what you can spend on a vehicle these days is insane, and you know it's going to be trash in 5 years.

[-] taladar@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago

It is almost as if the entire concept of owning a vehicle for the 2-3 trips a day most people take is not a very efficient concept.

[-] Mangosniper@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago

You mean 2-3 trips per week, right? Maybe with kids it gets one per day or every two days? laughs in 100 percent homeoffice

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

Cries in suburb america. Multiple trips a day.

[-] ohlaph@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Laughs from psychotic diarrhea.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

Shits and cums in ford focus

[-] Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 year ago

My 2018 car has absolutely no issues.

[-] Spzi@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago

China subsidizes EV production, and EU companies struggle to keep up. Now EU politics wants to make Chinese EVs more expensive?

In face of climate change, I can think of two more favorable solutions:

  1. Subsidize your own EV production. No one should be willing to buy an ICE anymore, anyways.
  2. Invest in public transit, bike infrastructure, cargo bikes. No one (except rural folks) should be dependent on owning a car, anyways.
[-] Anekdoteles@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Invest in public transit, bike infrastructure, cargo bikes. No one (except rural folks) should be dependent on owning a car, anyways.

This is very nice, but even better would be to make rents in cities dirt cheap again. First step would be to not sell any land but only lease it. And stop subsidizing the fucking countryside that grabs the wealth of society, ruins its political landscape and destroys the planet for it in return.

[-] blau@feddit.de 12 points 1 year ago

Why not require the Chinese car brands to start 49:51 joint ventures with European firms if they want access to the European market. It would be reciprocal to the burdens placed on European firms in the Chinese market, or not?

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

This article is very biased.
Chinese cars are in no way a threat to Volkswagen and especially not a life or death situation.
They are cheap and they are many. That's it. Tesla and other carmakers did EVs slow and steady and china subsidized like hell and is trying to flood markets.
Just like every other easy to build technology. Find thing, make thing flood market with cheap versions and less cost.

[-] 1bluepixel@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

They're doing this because they know the argument "China just builds cheap stuff" hasn't been true for two decades now.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

Amazon is full of chinese dropship crap and china still hasn't stopped importing ballpoints. Lets agree to disagree while i laugh at this biased CCP Bot comment

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[-] fer0n@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don’t know what’s actually going on, but this certainly sounds like something someone would say who’s about to be taken over by an "underdog" who couldn’t possibly beat them.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

No, they can beat ""us"" by subsidizing their exports. If they didnt they wouldnt even be here. Thats even mentioned in the article.
If you are talking about china as if it was an underdog you make yourself look like an idiot btw. China is a worldpower that is very open about disrupting foreign markets if it brings in money.

But it's fine. China still imports machinery and chemicals like crazy. We're not gonna die

[-] fr0g@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

easy to build technology

Um, what?

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

Electric cars are easy to build.

[-] fr0g@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

They're easier to build than internal combustion engine cars. But that doesn't mean they're easy to build in general.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

That's what it means. They are incredibly easy to build.

[-] Kornblumenratte@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

If they were easy to build, European car companies would have no problem to build them.

Of course, putting a battery and an electric drive into a car is simple. Electric cars are 50 years older than combustion cars. But there's a reason why they did not took off in the 1840s and why we did not use electric cars for 180 years — building usable ones is difficult.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

We have no Problem building them though???

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[-] _s10e@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

Isn't cheap and many of a ~~good~~ less bad thing exactly what you'd want? As a consumer.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

Of course. I would love to have my car but spend way less. Bur i think it would be very bad for the economy if this all is because the CCP actively subsidizes cars to export at cheap prices.
Same reason why donating old clothes to african countries sucks. Because it destroys their local production of those goods. German cars would be banned by the CCP if we subsidized them and somd them at a loss in china with the goal of destroying their own automobile market.

[-] Krachsterben@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

You think other countries don't subsidize their industries for competition? Lol

Welcome to the real world kiddo

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

We also put import tariffs on other things that are being aggressively subsized. Welcome to regular economy.

[-] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 5 points 1 year ago

The German car makers are loosing in the EV war in China, due to too high cost. Especially Volkswagen is among the best in terms of EVs, Europe has to offer. I am sorry, but same specs with half the price is a really good selling point. With subsidies that is very much possible.

[-] Nobsi@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

German cars in europe are losing the EV war in Europe because of high costs. China can just throw cars below ID3 prices onto the market and it's gonna look like a good deal. Chinese cars also don't have to follow any data protection laws in their software. If VW is the best European EV I can't say as I've not driven anything but VW, BYD and Nio.

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[-] febra@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

How about we let the chinese sell their EVs here?

I'm sorry, but by limiting my access to good, cheap EVs you're not going to win my vote.

I do not care about BMW, or Volkswagen, or some other European company producing really expensive, shitty EVs just so that we keep buying combustion engine cars, so that they can force us to keep using fossil fuels and buy their shitty expensive spare parts that always break (parts which EVs generally don't have).

I'm sorry, but my biggest worry right now is climate change, not keeping a couple of europe's billionaires pockets stuffed with money. I truly do not care one bit about the billionaires that own the companies mentioned above. The european consumer should have access to a cheap alternative to combustion engine cars. This move exists only to protect the interests of the rich.

For all my life I've been hearing stories about how competition under capitalism breeds innovation. Yet when true competition appears, suddenly we start throwing the book at it. So am I supposed to buy an overpriced electric vehicle made in Europe just because our billionaires don't see a reason yet to invest in EVs? Let them fight. Let competition come over here. Let's see what this business is all about.

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this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
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