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submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by BobbyBandwidth@lemmy.world to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

Beyond spez (and the fact that he is a greedy little pig boy), I’m curious about the corporate dynamics that prevent a company like Reddit from being profitable. From an outside perspective, they make hundreds of millions per year via advertising, their product is a relatively simple (compared to industries that need a lot of capital to build their product), and their content is created and moderated for free by users. Could any offer some insights or educated guesses? Additionally, I’m curious how this all ties into the larger culture of Silicon Valley tech companies in the 2010s.

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[-] ritswd@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Software engineer here, of the kind who works for companies similar to Reddit.

I don’t know more than anyone else about their financials, and I can surely believe that Reddit has been wasteful in a lot of ways in the past financial climates, since they didn’t have to optimize for profitability. But I can tell this firsthand: people tend to drastically under-estimate how much constant innovation is required to get past bottleneck after bottleneck just to keep the lights on, on very high-scale services.

Reddit’s scale is humongous, so I can see how it would require hundreds of employees just to keep it up and going.

[-] Anomander@kbin.social 12 points 2 years ago

I recall from past discussions on the site about its finances that theres a few major obstacles they hit;

Huge staffing costs. Not even necessarily bloat - though there is reportedly some of that - but just that they require a shitton of staff with expensive credentials to maintain and develop the site and its' backend. As the site grows, issues with code or algorithm or features require more and more resources to scale sustainably, so development snowballs similarly. It's expensive to maintain a stable of coders or developers capable of working in that scale. And not just code - their community or sales teams are also needing a lot of bodies and competitive compensation, especially up the food chain.

Hosting costs. As more and more of reddit's content is hosted in-house, their cost to deliver content has skyrocketed. There's very good business arguments to be made for keeping that content internally hosted, but those are all long-term payoff, while the costs of hosting are all much more immediate. In a prior conversation a former employee said that reddit's hosting costs have effectively kept pace with its growth in revenue.

Poor monetization, lack of vision, poor understanding of their own community.

Reddit launched without a monetization model, the plans was to build a VC darling and sell it so that monetization was someone else's problem. Now that the platform is trying to get cash positive, they've effectively failed to come up with a Plan A and gone for Plan B: ads. It's a particularly weak option, but a 'safe' fallback option used by shitty blogs and newsreels around the world. Reddit isn't offering particularly great value, it's not offering particularly great targeting, it's not even able to offer prominent placement or assured attention. Reddit is in a very poor position to sell ads when compared to Google or Facebook.

Reddit has struggled to make ads relevant, and has struggled to discover alternative revenue streams. The most major alternate revenue option has been awards / gold, but Reddit's commitment to that space has been half-assed at best, and resented or used toxically by the community at its worst. To the users or the outside world, we've never seen any attempts to make their niche more relevant to outsiders, or to make money from site users. Instead, they've waffled somewhat noncommittally in both spaces, while not excelling in either, or in walking a balance. I think it's safe to say from the Third Party Apps that there was huge willingness from Reddit's userbase to pay money in order to engage with the site in specific ways, and willingness to spend money on the community as a part of the community. Reddit never meaningfully figured out how to tap into the enthusiasm their own site inspired in its userbase.

Which I think is in large part because Reddit never really understood their own community. Reddit started with this wild anti-commercial, anti-adweb, mentality and attracted the technologically literate and internet-savvy demographic as it's core userbase, which went on to inform sitewide culture up to today. They launched a platform with anti-ad sentiment, attracted ad-opposed userbase demographics ... and then went ad-supported. This could have been something that reddit pitched successfully to the site at the time - they could have acknowledged that folks don't like ads and made a point of framing advertisers as entities choosing to support reddit and keep it free & functional - Reddit likes supporting "it's own". They could have facilitated and supported connections between advertisers and targeted communities in ways that bypass Reddit's hostility towards ads and appeals to advertisers. Instead they just started serving ads. Likewise with awards, premium, and similar: they could have done far more to play into the gamification and the willingness to support the platform - they just failed to. And today ... site Admin, Reddit Inc, have burned all of the community goodwill that could have made those programs successful by instead forcing corporate-feeling monetization and advertising upon the community.

More than wasting money directly, they've wasted opportunities and advantages. I think one huge long-term learning from Reddit's current struggle is the importance of soft skills and social acumen in managing a tech platform whose masthead product is its "communities" - they desperately needed people on staff who understood community and who understood their userbase's values and culture.

[-] Fauxreigner@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

This could have been something that reddit pitched successfully to the site at the time - they could have acknowledged that folks don’t like ads and made a point of framing advertisers as entities choosing to support reddit and keep it free & functional - Reddit likes supporting “it’s own”. They could have facilitated and supported connections between advertisers and targeted communities in ways that bypass Reddit’s hostility towards ads and appeals to advertisers. Instead they just started serving ads.

And they didn't just start serving ads, they started serving ads like the HeGetsUs campaign that were so poorly targeted that the community they'd built absolutely hated them.

[-] ritswd@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

That is a brilliantly thoughtful take, thanks a lot for taking the time!

The one thing I would temper, is that we don’t know for sure if there would have been better ways to monetize. I’m hopeful that there have been smart people at Reddit who looked into it and gathered good insights about it; maybe some approaches that feel right to us laymen actually crumble under closer scrutiny, with those insights we don’t have. Maybe there is a different leadership team out there who would have figured it out; but I don’t want to rule out the possibility that there isn’t, and that it just couldn’t get figured out. Maybe Reddit was just a terrible investment that had no way to get anywhere good, and that’s just how it is with startups sometimes.

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[-] daniskarma@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Business profitability is something vague.

They could have lots of unneeded expenses designed to give spez and friends money and luxuries with company money.

One thing is for sure, u/spez is swimming in money and luxuries. Probably a lot of his friends and family hired in high positions in the company are also swimming in money.

I won't believe any company profits/losses unless they release full accountability books.

[-] Music@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

With a C Corporation, officer salaries and wages are included in their profit calculation. So, it does stand to reason that Reddit's officers could bring in a large salary which then would affect the bottom line for the company.

[-] lazynooblet@lazysoci.al 8 points 2 years ago

Those pesky API hoggers stealing all the revenue.

[-] camelCaseGuy@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

er took er ~jebs~ API

[-] SCmSTR@kbin.social 8 points 2 years ago

Because prioritizing growth rather than sustainability costs a shit ton of money, money which gets borrowed from investors, which has to get paid back in folds, and then the investors also want more and can control what you do, and all they want is more money, so they reinvest over and over and over, which just perpetuates debt and further and further delays profit.

In short: late-stage capitalist greed.

[-] jetsetdorito@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

Deciding to host images and especially video really didn't help, those are expensive.

[-] Froyn@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

Both of which, were completely unnecessary as imgur and youtube were already handling that.

[-] Awwab@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

Well it is if your trying to keep people on your site longer...

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[-] ultimate_question@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

At a high level it just comes down to the company not being structured to generate profit -- fundamentally it exists to justify moving money from investors to the owners of reddit. That has worked up until now but in the current economic climate investors are looking for a return and it's exposing how many tech companies have been burning cash because of how easy it was to get with minimal accountability. Any feature reddit adds hasn't actually had to increase revenue, it's had to convince investors that it is going to increase revenue, which is why the few features they've added have basically been clones of features that attracted investors to other platforms (like the video streaming thing)

After nearly two decades of running the company that way it's going to be hard to pivot to actually generating money directly to cover what I imagine are loads of unnecessary expenses and inflated salaries

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[-] gon@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

greedy little pig boy xd

[-] fiasco@possumpat.io 3 points 2 years ago

We'd need to see their financials, which is tricky since they aren't public yet. There's also the issue, Steve lies about everything, so should we believe he's telling the truth?

But my guesses would go like this:

Since they've been spending other people's money, they probably haven't been watching expenses closely. Their P&L is probably dominated by payroll and rent. I can't help but feel that programmers are drastically overpaid, which is a symptom of the same issues, that there's a lot of other people's money chasing a finite supply of techbros.

The reason I think programmers are probably overpaid, by the way, is the number of man-hours they allegedly put in, versus the quality of their output. Reddit is a particularly shocking example of this.

In any case, the other people's money doctrine is to grow into profitability, which means burning money on spurious shit until some magic happens. Not exactly a winning business model.

[-] bquinlan@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The same data you use to say that programmers are overpaid could be seen as an indication that professional-level software development is more difficult than you think and warrants the higher salaries. Programming is one of those things that almost anyone can do, but relatively few can do well.

Either way, if there were people who could do it better or cheaper they would be.

Edit: In the interest of full disclosure, my view may be slanted because I am a developer. On the other hand, that means I've seen the subject from the inside.

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[-] tonamel@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

A company of Reddit's size might make hundreds of millions in ad revenue, but they also have hundreds of millions in costs. For example, spez said recently they have ~2000 employees. If we make a conservative estimate that the average salary is $50k, that's $100 Million a year just in payroll (and given that they're based in San Francisco, it's definitely higher than that). And if you consider all the computers, servers, electricity and other utilities, marketing, etc, etc, it adds up quick.

[-] Tb0n3@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It was commented by the Sync developer, I think, that they made their app as a single developer. The Reddit app is made by 200 god damn people and sucks. That's a major symptom.

Found it.

[-] Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz 4 points 2 years ago

I wonder what the hell are those 2000 employees even doing? Brainstorming new awards?

[-] ImDonaldDunn@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I assume some of them are doing ad sales, which is revenue generating. Probably a lot of HR (which 80%+ of those positions are a grift, IMO), and a lot of other make-work positions. Their product team is like 200 people and they don’t even have any accessibility engineers.

[-] Casey_Masterpiece@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

I'm not sure whether you can trust any conclusion that they are or aren't profitable so I'm not sure it's worth thinking about.

[-] OutrageousUmpire@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

It makes no sense to me. And more, with Reddit openly stating this I don’t know why anyone would buy into the IPO.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

Nobody will. All this negative sentiment and suddenly turning toward musk ahead of IPO seems almost deliberate. Keep your head on a swivel with this one.

[-] MajorHavoc@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Talking openly and positively about the current poster child for wild company valuation loss - right before an IPO - sounds fishy to me to the point of wondering where the crime angle is in the whole thing.

The whole mess reeks of a future episode of "60 minutes".

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[-] ghost_of_snowflake@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Well.... if every angry ex-redditor bought a share they could take the platform down. :)

[-] fsk@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

A site like Reddit could be run on a skeleton crew of 20-50 people. That's what Elon Musk is trying to do somewhat with Twitter, slashing unnecessary employees. (Example: How many people are working on lemmy?)

Look at it from the viewpoint of an executive. "I managed a 5 person team." makes you sound like a loser. "I managed a 100 person division" makes you sound like a Big Important Person, even if 95 of those jobs were unnecessary.

Also look at it from the viewpoint of investors. If an investor puts $200M into Reddit, they want Reddit to be spending $100M-$200M on growth. No investor would put $200M into reddit if reddit was going to just run a barebones operation spending $20M per year and then coasting for 10 years off the investment money.

[-] dreadedsemi@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

Common problem with IT companies they overgrow themselves under false optimism and the urgent need to innovate to keep up with competition. It doesn't help when a bro who once had a good idea is tasked with leading the company. If they actually only did minimum like craigslist they might make a lot more profits but might eventually fail. But not worse than now.

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this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2023
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