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[-] redders@lemmy.world 95 points 1 year ago

Well...

For the equal partner bit they'd probably have had to respect election results and stop murdering political rivals.

And that would just be a step too far.

[-] query@lemmy.world 79 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Barely. They were in the G8. Even after being kicked out trade kept going as normal, new pipelines were being built, nuclear power plants were being shut down because who needs a fallback?

Saudi Arabia gets full honors on the international stage, despite publicly executing people for criticizing the government or having independent thought, and cutting up a journalist in a consulate abroad.

[-] JPAKx4@lemmy.sdf.org 20 points 1 year ago

Blood money is still money!

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[-] eestileib@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago

As long as they kept it to murdering political rivals within the country they would have been fine.

Everybody still does business with PRC, Saudi Arabia, etc

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[-] Intralexical@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

And that would just be a step too far.

Eh. Through the history of the 90s, it looked like they might have a shot at establishing a free and stable democracy.

Then privatization and mishandled foreign aid created their oligarchs, quality of life fell through the floor in basically all the post-Soviet states, people got mad, tired, and scared, Putin stepped in to "stabilize the situation"Then the politicians and journalists started dying, crazy siloviks and vatniks fully captured what was left of their political institutions I guess, and now they're doing a lot of evil murder and various interesting atrocities.

There might have been/probably were underlying cultural factors that made it impossible for Russia to ever stabilize as a "normal" country at that point. But those are hard to see from an outside perspective, and I guess they're probably pretty hard to see from inside as well.

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[-] iain@feddit.nl 33 points 1 year ago

Equal partner? The EU doesn't even treat their own poorer member states as equal partners. It remains to be seen whose dick tastes better the coming decades.

[-] kameecoding@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

why the anti-eu shit? Russian dick sounds tasty to you or what?

and which of these poorer countries do you think id worse off since joining the EU? other than maybe Hungary but that has nothing to do with the EU, lol

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We're 100% better off in the EU than we would be out of it, but there is a lot of favoritism and "Rules for thee but not for me" shit that rolls eastward.

Romania and Bulgaria are now suing the Austrian government for blocking our entrance into Schengen despite fulfilling every single point asked of us, and they still turn around and go "Lol no, you're not western EU, you don't deserve to be in this club".

Also, wtf is this shit France is talking about with tiered membership? I fully suspect they'll use this to try and strip poorer EU countries of voting rights if they get their way.

[-] dustyData@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Exactly, like, the EU is not perfect, shit sucks sometimes, internal conflict is frequent. But let's not pretend like the alternative being turning into a soviet vassal state is all roses and singing.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago

The cherry on top is that poor EU states are almost universally those that were under USSR subjugation, so we know full well both sides. Unequal treatment is better than subjugation.

[-] kameecoding@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Also, wtf is this shit France is talking about with tiered membership? I fully suspect they’ll use this to try and strip poorer EU countries of voting rights if they get their way.

To be fair countries like Hungary and Poland have exposed the obvious weaknesses of a fully equal partnership that's present in the EU, it's all nice and stuff untill the whole EU pulls together, once you have bad actors fucking up quasi dictatorships like HUngary can stop your shit way too easily.

“Rules for thee but not for me” shit that rolls eastward.

I feel like that would exist regardless of EU or not and while present in the EU it would be worse without it.

I mean don't get me wrong, the EU isn't perfect, but the person I replied to is clearly doing a false equivalence shit, comparing an imperfect EU with the fuckstorm that is russia.

[-] Barbarian@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

That can be solved by removing the veto, but it's pretty telling that France wants to replace that with a tiered system rather than accept that they might get overruled by a majority if they do fucked up shit like Hungary was doing.

EU isn't perfect, but the person I replied to is clearly doing a false equivalence shit, comparing an imperfect EU with the fuckstorm that is russia.

Completely agree. However many problems I have with the way the EU runs, it's infinitely better than living under a boot.

[-] GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com 3 points 1 year ago

I've seen European history summarized as "everything was going well until one day a Frenchman had an idea and things went disastrously bad for everyone".

[-] iain@feddit.nl 3 points 1 year ago

Worse off I'm not sure, but you bet Greece, Italy and Spain are not treated as equal partners to France, Germany or even Belgium.

This doesn't mean I'm anti EU, I'm just realistic in that Russia would never be treated the same.

I'm also not confident that US/EU will be on top forever. China is gaining ground.

I would advise you to not confuse your preference for the US/EU with reality. And not every form of criticism means advocating for the other side.

[-] Onionizer@geddit.social 9 points 1 year ago

We're literally pumping money into our poorer members to get them up to speed

[-] iain@feddit.nl 5 points 1 year ago

We're giving them loans, that they have to repay and with the provision that they have to enact austerity. The welfare being cut is being replaced by companies from richer countries, making a lot of money out of it. It's basically the same thing the IMF does to a lot of developing countries.

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[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 year ago

Please let us know when you find out, comrade.

[-] GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago

There is still far too many people hurt by the Cold War or its fallout, which many Westerners forget lead to the deaths of millions, for any partnership with Russia to be anything other than tenuous.

[-] SCB@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

far too many people hurt by the cold war

And all of those people hurt are a result of the Soviet Union being a hell state.

[-] GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com 4 points 1 year ago

The USSR was not the hellscape you think it was for many people and the decline of the second wealthiest nation brought about real struggles for people in the aftermath.

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[-] SCB@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

The implication here is that the west has a good relationship with Russia at some point, and that has never been true.

[-] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 32 points 1 year ago

There were a few years of hope of a genuine partnership after the wall fell. That hope remained but arguably became delusional once Putin took charge.

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[-] HawlSera@lemm.ee 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Sadly not a new story, most of the world considered Hitler a great man (He made the cover of Time Magazine) and had an "Aww shucks" attitude to most of the negatives what he did... then he started invading other countries, and even then the first one (Poland) got a shrug at first

"Not In My Backyard!" types have let all kinds of fuckery grow until it became their problem

[-] frezik@midwest.social 34 points 1 year ago

It's worth reading the actual Times article that they ran with that cover.

https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760539,00.html

Führer of the German people, Commander-in-Chief of the German Army, Navy & Air Force, Chancellor of the Third Reich, Herr Hitler reaped on that day at Munich the harvest of an audacious, defiant, ruthless foreign policy he had pursued for five and a half years. He had torn the Treaty of Versailles to shreds. He had rearmed Germany to the teeth— or as close to the teeth as he was able. He had stolen Austria before the eyes of a horrified and apparently impotent world.

It's not complimentary. Time's Man of the Year is based on influence. It's not saying that influence is good.

[-] chatokun@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Same reason Trump was on it during his presidency iirc. Quoting them:

TIME has a long history of featuring presidents on the cover and Trump, whose presidency defied precedents and fractured norms, has been no exception. Eight of the top 10 people to appear most often on TIME’s cover are U.S. presidents.

Nixon, Reagan, and Bill Clinton have all been on more than Trump.

[-] Leviathan@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Hitler made the cover of time as a monster, not because he was "great".

[-] aesthelete@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

Fascism always winds up having to reach outside of its own borders.

[-] Ibex0@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Spain kept it going internally for decades.

Only because they didn't have a choice. The civil war destroyed their already mediocre industry and it was easier to just ally with the capitalists against the communists in exchange for financial aid.

Make no mistake, if it were possible for Franco to invade his neighbors he would have.

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[-] vivadanang@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

yeah what a paradise that turned into

[-] uis@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Evil is uncontainable. If you accept bribe money, corruption will haunt your country.

[-] hh93@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

I mean you're telling everyone that your country is superior to all others then it's just logical that you see others as mere support for your country and even entitled to it.

[-] Not_mikey@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Lol to "equal partner" the u.s. policy towards Russia after WWII and even after the Soviet Union was of containment. Whether that was necessary considering their history with their neighbors is another story, but the idea that after the wall fell there was a path to E.U. and NATO cooperation on equal footing is delusional. None of this justifies the war, but it remains to be seen whether they'll even bring Ukraine in as an equal partner and not just a battlefield for there war with Russia

[-] vivadanang@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

And if the world had stopped immediately after the cold war ended this would be a valid statement.

Unfortunately there were 30+ intervening years where the US and other countries did invest in Russia. Stop acting like that wasn't a thing, we've spent the last year plus trying to drag that shit out of russia since they invaded Ukraine.

[-] uis@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Invest in Russia? Bwahahahaha. Did US invest into Russian Public Transit? Into affordable housing? They can't do it domestically, you think they can improve quality of life abroad?

US "invested" into oligarchs that got rich by buying for dirt cheap public property on money loaned by state that was returned by selling tiny fraction of it for real price.

we've spent the last year plus trying to drag that shit out of russia

Depends who "we". Unless "we" are Finland, "we" happily received stolen money. Putin's yacht that costs about 8000 his annual official wages(duh, he has wage) was arrested only after war started. Do you really think nobody questioned that? When person who questioned that was poisoned, US did nothing.

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[-] falsem@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Oh look, the tankies are here

[-] MrBusinessMan@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I used to do business with a lot of Russians right after the Berlin wall came down, we all got filthy rich privatizing the trillions of dollars worth of state industries. They were excited about joining NATO when Putin applied, they thought they were going to be in the club. Point is, they did everything we asked, but in the end they were more useful to us as an enemy, so it never mattered what Russia did, we were never going to let them into the club. Looking back on it now, I laugh. Thanks for the profits, Boris! You fucking rube!

[-] severien@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Russia never applied to join NATO.

[-] uis@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Yeah, how many times Anticorruption Foundation told "this money is stolen, getting bribes is day job of this official", yet nothing was done. Still not enough is done. Even now sanctions seems to be sabotaged:

  • Average russian citizen that runs away from being drafted, being killed or killing other people should cross border naked or his posessions will be confiscated. Including phone, shoes and clothes.
  • Very welcome totaly not putin oligarchs/corruptioners can keep their fleet of BMWs and yachts, while still actively supporting war.

And corporate fuckery:

  • MacDon given so much food for propaganda by "leaving" country, while they can force-buy everything back for one rouble(about one cent).
[-] nostradiel@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's a meme so I don't take it seriously cause otherwise it's terribly wrong. West didn't want Russia to join them. Western corporation/families wanted to gain controll over rich natural russian resources. Putin stopped that in 90s. And that's why we're where we're..

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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2023
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