There are many problems associated with being alive. This is one of them. But it annoys me that vegans seem bent on proselytizing their viewpoint. It always seems self serving to me.
Yes yes the people that care about others dont actually its just virtue-signalling no need to critically engage with what they are saying 🥱
Because it is. It is just a lifestyle people use to feel like they are better people than meat eaters. Despite the fact that our bodies are literally made for digesting both plants and animal products. Meanwhile, the majority of them still wear clothes made in sweatshops, wear makeup by brands that actively contribute to animal and human cruelty, eat chocolate made with slave labor, buy from stores that carry animal products, and have no issue with cruelty towards people. Idk. If it isn't a self-serving ideology, it definitely cosplays as one very convincingly.
Do you expect people to somehow be able to avoid all suffering? There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and often people don't recognize the ethical problems with their choices. People purchase clothes they can afford at the shops available to them, and availability of stores that don't carry animal products is essentially zero. What I find more odd is defending something we know is causing great suffering, simply because vegetarians/Vegans also do end up participating in the perpetuation of different suffering. I'm not better than you because I'm vegan, and most Vegans/vegetarians do not believe that. It's a take I only hear from people that eat animals.
Is there any altruistic act that you couldn't apply that logic to?
Well, I'm not applying the logic to an altruistic act. I am applying it to a group of people that claim to be altruists, when they are really nothing more than self-serving ideologues with a nice sounding motive.
So you agree that veganism is the moral option but dont like vegans because they just pretend to be more moral?
No, I just don't care for moral grandstanding.
Ok forget about the vegans, bunch of preachy, sanctimonious, self-centered assholes every single one. Do you, as a non-hypocritical person with certain principles, think the exploitation of sentient beings is unethical and should be boycotted?
No- I know what you're trying to go for, because it's the same argument every Vegan thinks is their coup de grace. I, as a thinking person, am able to kill and use other animals to eat, for clothing, for protection, or for whatever else I need. I do not believe it is more or less moral to be vegan than it is to eat meat or use animal products. Are you able to prove that the plants you "exploit" aren't sentient? No. Because sentience and life are not easily defined terms. Anyways, have a good rest of your life.
Are you able to prove that the plants you “exploit” aren’t sentient?
Dont have to, already done:
https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/plants-are-alive/resources
So it's okay to cause pain to plants, because they don't react to the stimuli the same way as animals? That's what your link claims. Sounds like y'all are on a foundation of salt and sand. Plants are sentient, just not sapient.
They dont have a nervous system you dumb fuck and even if they feel pain
Regardless, each pound of animal flesh requires between four and thirteen pounds of plant matter to produce, depending upon species and conditions. Given that amount of plant death, a belief in the sentience of plants makes a strong pro-vegan argument.
Neat, so even if I'm right- you wanna call names. I disagree that it makes a pro-vegan argument, it just makes vegans look equally as cruel, and intellectually dishonest on top of it.
nah dude you started with the names and rudeness I just responded in kind, dont act all high and mighty now. And if you actually believed that killing a newborn is the same as picking a salad you would do your utmost to make sure your consumption minimizes plant death which again would mean a vegan diet since meat "production" requires a multiple of plant by mass, not to mention how many many many more plants have to "die" by the numbers to feed one animal before you murder it.
Where did I call you a name? Man, you're now arguing against things I never said. Not beating the allegations of vegans being preachy, holier-than-thou ideologues.
Youve been calling it "moral grandstanding", "self-serving ideologues" basically at every turn youve been condescending and snide, so don't act all shocked when some of it is returned.
I'm not acting surprised- I know how you people are. I never once called you a name. If you felt insulted by what I said, maybe it's time to take a look inward. Sorry you felt called out.
You called out vegans, I am vegan, I felt called out 🤣 Introspection over
I called out the MAJORITY of vegans. If you happen to fall in to the group of losers that use it as a way to feel special, that isn't my fault. You just happen to be in a group of people that like to feel morally superior to others.
haha yeah sure you did, except you forgot to delete the shit you wrote so it's still there.
You're right! So let's see what I said:
...the majority of them still wear clothes made in sweatshops...
Damn, you're dumb.
It is just a lifestyle people use to feel like they are better people than meat eaters.
If it isn’t a self-serving ideology, it definitely cosplays as one very convincingly.
Who are you trying to fool??
Edit: why am I still arguing with some guy who claims he believes picking a salad and killing a newborn are the same thing and then goes and calls others hypocrites.
I'm not trying to fool anyone- you're just mad that you fall in with the people that want to be better than everyone else, but fail at every turn.
That edit is funny- considering you set out to prove that vegans aren't sanctimonious, self-serving losers, and all you've done is preach and try to show how elevated your ideology is.
No, I've set out to prove that omnis have nothing but some stupid hypotheticals ("what if plants are sentient??") and ad hominems and I think I've shown this in your case quite thoroughly. Additionally the reddit thing of you constantly reinterpreting of what you said is just a bonus.
No, I've set out to prove that omnis have nothing but some stupid hypotheticals
Well you failed there, too.
Additionally the reddit thing of you constantly reinterpreting of what you said is just a bonus.
Weird how you've convinced yourself of something that did not happen.
If you're going to go all biblical to make us feel bad then you have to acknowledge how the bible also says all the animals are here for us specifically.
I'm not religious and even I know it says that.
Funnily enough there's actually wording in Genesis that could be taken imply humans are just supposed to eat plants, with humans just ruling the animal kingdom and not devouring it.
Feel free to look up Genesis 1:25-31 to see what I mean, though of course translations are..
Very variable.
Regardless, most interpretations agree that what humans absolutely shouldn't be doing is causing a mass extinction that is set to kill just about every complex life form on Earth.
That's really interesting! I'd be curious to see what other translations read as (especially ancient languages, if I were smart enough to read them), but in the NIV translation, you could absolutely read that as a call to eat only plants, and to care for the animals.
It could also be taken another, slightly more terrifying way, too.
If we assume what we're doing is right, farming and killing animals for food, and work backwards from there, the verses say that God made the animals, and gave us dominion over them. If we assume the way we currently treat animals and view them is how that dominion works, then when it goes on to say that God made man in God's image, it could be implied to say that man is to animal as God is to man.
Which could mean God is farming and killing us for God's sustenance. We're nothing but chickens in cages.
25 God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good.
26 God said, “Let’s make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in his own image. In God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them. God said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 God said, “Behold,[a] I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food. 30 To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food;” and it was so.
31 God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
Footnotes
1:29 “Behold”, from “הִנֵּה”, means look at, take notice, observe, see, or gaze at. It is often used as an interjection.
Public domain, WEB translation.
Is it just the ones I personally killed or do you have to say sorry to like five cows for every burger you ate? Also do clams count? because they barely have a nervous system
I'm sure those vegetarians will be shocked at the number of non plant based creatures they will have to make amends with. Just living causes the death of other creatures. I'm sure they don't see it that way.
ffs Joe, did you kill a fucking elephant?
Yeah I thought this was a carnivore joke, but some of those animals do NOT check out 😨
is he like an oil baron, wtf is this shit
Holy hell he ate an elephant?
Lots of interesting points at various levels of the comments.
I'd like to offer the idea of, just because we can and have eaten meat as a species, should we continue to?
Why not try something different?
These angels are just trying to create a top ranked list so god can see how much of a lead he has on any one person.
No. Having the main cause of death in the world demanding a mere mortal to ask forgiveness for killing to satisfy a basic need is really a tall order.
And why are plants exempt from being asked for forgiveness? It has been shown plants show stress and resonate with their surroundings.
A life is a life.
And why are plants exempt from being asked for forgiveness? It has been shown plants show stress and resonate with their surroundings. A life is a life.
Do you truly believe that harvesting some potatoes or mowing a lawn is on a similar level to cutting the throat of dogs, pigs, or cows? Like, for real?
Then there's the elefant in the room that animals literally have to eat tons and tons of animal feed each before being slaughtered, so eating meat is the worst choice of food in terms of both animal suffering and plant suffering, which means industrial animal farming is even more fucked up than it already is.
So the implication of this argument can't be the consideration of suffering, the only interpretation that is somewhat coherent is "you can't be perfect, so causing as much violence towards animals as you want is fine." which would be an exceedingly cynical and cruel position to take.
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