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It's not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

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[-] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 60 points 3 weeks ago

It's not fun interacting with them

Semi related: Something weird has been going on at dbzer0 yesterday and today. They are not normally tankies, they always seemed like they were just kind of sensible and doing their own thing, but since the time of the "pro AI" vs "anti AI" thing they now seem to have declared absolute scorched earth war on "the liberals" in the same way that the triad always has.

It's like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the "anti-AI troll" banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff... it's fuckin' nuts. It came out of nowhere.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 34 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

They are not normally tankies

What, in your opinion, makes us "tankies" from what you just said? Respect for the neopronouns, intolerance towards Genai-hater trolls, or mod actions towards someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users?

Anarchists always had very similar critiques towards capitalism as Marxists. Where we differ is what we do about it, and these actions is what can label someone a "tankie"

[-] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 27 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I didn't say you were tankies, I actually said you were not. I just said something weird was going on with dbzer0. Your comment here, I say without really meaning any hostility by it, is more weird stuff.

Every single one of the issues you've listed, you've reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying 'yes I'm fine using people's pronouns'), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the "enemy" side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.

Intolerance towards genAI-hater trolls was never the issue, it was random mod actions against people who were not genAI-hater trolls. And then pretending that anyone who got the random unwarranted mod action was probably a genAI-hater troll.

Both of those are the dishonest framings that the people defending whatever weird decision love to use. And, no matter how often it's pointed out to them that some other people disagree with their framing, they simply ignore it, as if the person hadn't said anything at all, and repeat the framing that conveniently makes their answer the only possible answer. That is textbook tankie-instance behavior. It's part of what makes them insufferable to try to talk with. Even if your politics are clearly not tankie.

And, of course:

someone who went on a harassment campaign towards one of our users

Aha!

"One of our users."

That's the root of the issue, to me. You're starting to treat "your users" differently than other users.

One of your users spent part of yesterday following me around and replying to me in a few different threads demanding that I take part in an argument I'd already addressed and then told them I wasn't interested in continuing. Is that harassment? No, because it's your users.

There's this massive thread accusing PugJesus of all kinds of stuff: That he's pro-Israel, that he's a terminally online weirdo loser, that he never backs up anything he says, that he bans anyone who criticizes Israel, that he's transphobic and doesn't respect people's pronouns, that he's a twat, and so on. That's completely fine, because he's a "lib." He's the enemy. We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified, it's a big hateful groupthink that defines things in terms of enemies (and a crucial part is twisting things around so that someone can be defined as a horrifying enemy in some way, which is why they're pretending he is pro-Israel) and in-groups. Why is that all okay? Because he's not one of your users. He's the out-group, he is a liberal apparently.

In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action. If you pretend someone said something they didn't say to stir up shit, you get mod action. Ada's description from a different domain was actually pretty good: There are certain types of respect that are not "a reward for good behaviour." They're just what we need to do for each other to keep the community on the rails. On most of Lemmy, the mod action for violating that kind of respect is overtly one-sided; if you're in the in-group, it's allowed, if you're aiming it towards the in-group, then you get mod action because it's a crisis.

Does that one-sided moderation, and officially badjacketing people as "Zionists" and genocide supporters and then going full-bore against them as a result, mean you're tankies? Not in the literal sense, no. But you're starting to act like the tankie instances, all of a sudden, when it seems to me like you used to be chill and sensible. You had your politics but you weren't dishonestly attacking and moderating against anyone who had some different kind of politics, and mobbing up against them like Lord of the Flies. Now it seems like you are, and it happened (from my POV at least) all of a sudden out of nowhere, and it's weird to me.

(Yes, I know what badjacketing means. I placed it in the sentence the way I did to make a point.)

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 3 weeks ago

Every single one of the issues you’ve listed, you’ve reframed it into something different than it was. Neopronouns were never the issue, it was blahaj shielding a transphobic troll from criticism and banning people who complained about them (complained about them while using accepted pronouns, usually while explicitly saying ‘yes I’m fine using people’s pronouns’), purely because the troll cleverly decided to involve neopronouns into the issue. And then pretending that anyone who was on the “enemy” side was obviously a pronoun-hater and that was the entirety of the issue.

That's your framing of the situation.

An alternative perspective is that the "pronouns cannot relate to imaginary creatures" is gender gatekeeping.
Drag was potentially trolling, but if nobody ever took the bait, nothing would have happened.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162

We can all yell at him, insult him, nothing needs to be justified

People brought justifications

In some forums, that kind of thing is disallowed. If you make personal attacks or insults, you get mod action

Direct attacks are usually removed

You had your politics but you weren’t dishonestly attacking

I'm am going to be honest with you, I didn't expect you to make this kind of comments

Cool! Now accuse him of caring way too much about politics, and getting in heated debates about it like a LOSER, speaking as you are from your lemmy.ml address. That’ll make perfect sense too.

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20291493

Also, not sure why it's not okay for dbzer0 to have a "our users" stance while you broadly categorize all .ml users as "losers"

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I disagree with your framing. I think you're being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions. At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.

And yes, we're going to take action about harassment of our own users, that's the duty of an instance admin. I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban. Literally the mildest of punishments ever, and you're at the point of pondering what's rotten in the whole instance and writing walls of text, over a short term "chill out" ban.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 15 points 3 weeks ago

I disagree with your framing. I think you're being dishonest in your framing on what caused the mod actions.

I can't count how many times someone on or off blahaj tried to explain that Dragonrider's trolling, encouraging other users to suicide, things like that, were the core of the issue. If you really want to join Ada in pretending that there's a whole Lemmy population that's just frothing at the mouth to dictate to other people what pronouns they can and can't use, and that was what got them heated up about Dragonrider and nothing about any of the other stuff, I won't stop you. I started to dig up old messages to put together a timeline, but then I realized I don't care and I think the issue is pretty clear enough already.

At the end of the day we and Ada are beholden to our respective users, and as it turns out, they think those were the right choices.

This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that's all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you're starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that's not always a good thing.

I want to point out however that all this brouhaha is over a 7days ban.

Personally, I don't care about the ban itself. I actually agree with you that PugJesus making a whole community to whine about how unfair it is is kind of childish. I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 3 weeks ago

Honestly, I think calling what's ongoing "bullying" is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.

This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that's all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you're starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that's not always a good thing.

I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks. Then I can point you to someone about to have a burnout.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 10 points 3 weeks ago

Honestly, I think calling what's ongoing "bullying" is kinda strange. If anything we wanted to cool the situation down.

Quotes from the thread:

The person in question is extremely rude and toxic. I have reached out to the LW admins regarding that he seems unfit to be moderating a dozen medium to larger communities. Unfortunately i didnt get any reply.

I think he’s an obnoxious dickhead

I remember his username and him being a twat

He’s a genocide-supporting Zionist radlib

a goddam stalker

an angry turbolib who blames the left (and Eugene in particular, for some reason) for the pathetic failure of the corporate-c**k-sucking Democrats

And so on. There's plenty more, that's just what I had patience to dig up.

I would rather show me which admins are more centered on what every rando on the internet thinks.

Those aren't the only two options lol. I'm just saying that "Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!" isn't the good justification that it sounds like, when you phrase it differently than I just did.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 weeks ago

Quotes from the thread:

Not sure which thread you mean, but If you think people expressing their low opinions about someone is "bullying", then, well you haven't experienced bullying. And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion? Like, this is a legit absurd argument path.

Those aren't the only two options lol. I'm just saying that "Our users/tribe love that we always take the side of our users/tribe no matter the facts of the situation!"

It's easy to look right when fighting against strawmen.

[-] PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

You just asked for examples of bullying, so I provided. What did you expect me to bring up, was someone sneaking through his window and punching him in the face? I'm not sure what other than personal insults could be meant by that. If it was bringing up examples of wrong things he did, then sure. Some people did that, some people lied about it (claiming he'd said one thing when he'd said the exact opposite), some people actively refused to provide any evidence but just threw insults at him and then peaced out. The first thing, I'd have no problem with, the others I feel like are worth worrying about at least a little bit.

And also, what the hell do you expect of dbzer0 admins to do about people expressing such opinions? You want us to go around protecting the people you like from public opinion?

I want you to stop protecting the people you like from public opinion. I'm completely fine with everyone just being able to have their say, although maybe certain levels of personal abuse shouldn't be tolerated. But it's very clearly one-sided. The dbzer0 people have been describing downvoting as "abuse," so yes, I would say aiming extensive cursing and personal insults at someone and accusing them of things they didn't do can be "bullying," or at least something that's worthy of mods weighing in on it, like they would pounce instantly if someone said something about Sam Altman or something.

Edit: Actually, maybe a better way to explain it: Go back to every one of the quotes I listed about PugJesus. If people came into a dbzer0 thread and said the exact same types of things about Ada, would that be okay? Or would it be a problem that required mod / admin attention?

That's what bugs me about it, it's the blatant tribalism of it. You permabanned a trans person just recently because they tried (again, for the thousandth time) to explain what the issue was with Dragonrider, and you didn't like that, so ban for "pissy." They're not in the club, so fuck them. Everyone got all up in arms about ban reason "tankie," but you're fine with a comment being removed for the reason "shut the fuck up, liberal" (I actually 100% agree with removing the actual underlying comment -- my point is that the slurs are starting to be celebrated, and only go one way, and that's not a good thing.)

One of your people has just recently invented a new slur ("slopper") to use to attack people they disagree with as they are being banned. I have no idea the context or what it means, although I can guess.

You get the idea. I don't want to go back and forth about extensively. I have no idea how much of this is you, or the admin team, or whoever. I actually think probably most of what I see as most worrying is not coming from the admin team. But the culture shift is alarming to me. It's all about attack, slurs, new fun insults. We need to protect "our users" against downvotes. Other users, on other instances, who got rando-banned, well, fuck them, they're not "ours," so who cares.

You get the idea. Maybe not. Anyway, that's what I think about it.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 3 weeks ago

Why yes, we do tolerate people badmouthing Ada, dessalines, nutomic, and even our own admins. Hell I've personally tolerated dozens of angry hexbears trying to bully myself in my own thread in my own comm. We do indeed walk the walk.

There's no "tribalism" here, no matter how much you keep repeating it. In all honestly it reads to me you're more upset people are not sufficiently polite in disagreement. Anarchists can and will be rude, especially towards people like PJ routinely but politely calling them "nazis" for not engaging in the electoralism farce. Nobody is under any onus to remain polite to spare your feelings, nor does this make is a "tribe" because we tend to attract anarchists who feel the same way about liberals.

Fuck I don't even know at this point what your problem even is, that we attract like-minded people in our instance? We don't want to be lemmy.world for a reason and if you want that, well lemmy.world already exists.

Seriously, We're not going to go around policing people for rudeness. This is absurd and will not work whatsoever.

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[-] Blaze@sopuli.xyz 9 points 3 weeks ago

One of your people has just recently invented a new slur (“slopper”) to use to attack people they disagree with as they are being banned. I have no idea the context or what it means, although I can guess.

Context:

From a more recent thread

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[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 weeks ago

This was pretty much my point. lemmy.ml and Hexbear love how their admins behave, and that’s all the admins feel like they need to know. My point was that (a) you’re starting to operate along the same lines, it looks like, and (b) that’s not always a good thing.

Any admins should act upon harassment of one of their users, especially if the admins of the harassers don't.

I care more about the bullying and fact-free mentality, that big thread with people making up nonsense about the target of the day.

Isn't that the concept of !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com since its inception?

[-] AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

Multithread crashout with enough paragraphs typed to fill a novella. This level of drama might be peak Lemmy thought crime policing. Peak liberal vs tankie on a topic unrelated to it. This thread (an argument loadstone which was irresistible) and the time ya'll have spent in is incredible. That's just imo, of course.

But keep going, I'm loving reading all this!

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[-] Eldritch@piefed.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I think Philip was referring to the venom and hostility on display from some lately. I said something similar to pug last night. To be clear it isn't you or anything you've done.

And I fully understand the recoiling at some of the hyper reflexive venom on display from a few when anything regarding AI is brought up. It's a tool, and neither good or bad on its own. But some squeal like drama queens if you even bring it up.

Conversely the other day I had someone from your instance call me, someone who would at least be a syndicist a shit-lib. Because I made a point of calling for solidarity and mutual aid, pointing out that our failures to do so are part of what has led us to the current points of crisis we find ourselves in. I had a bit of a chuckle at the tanky talk. But it wasn't something completely isolated. Though again I'm gonna reiterate. None of this involves you. And you aren't their keeper. They are adults who can make their own decisions and mistakes.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Ye, we obviously can have some acerbic users as well, can't avoid it 12k registrations. But if someone is too toxic consistently, we tend to get rid of them. Still doesn't make the instance tankie thought 😅

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[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It’s like all the issues all of a sudden came out at once. The Dragonfucker argument is back, someone has been following me around all day and hectoring me on random topics and just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong, they all of a sudden hate PugJesus with a hundreds-of-comments-wild-personal-attacks passion, the “anti-AI troll” banning random people mod is now posting tankie stuff… it’s fuckin’ nuts. It came out of nowhere.

At least the drag and PugJesus issues are related, as that's why PJ got banned on Blahaj: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39039162

I pointed this out to you in the !fediverselore@lemmy.ca thread and you acknowledged it: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20253309

Not sure why you're saying it's coming out of nowhere when you are aware of that link.

People aren't following you around, they reply to comments you make about the whole situation

The "anti-AI troll" come up due to this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/49571446/20270123

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[-] UniversalMonk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 weeks ago

just told me UniversalMonk did nothing wrong

Bro, I love you, but you never miss an opportunity to bring my name up in your posts. I ain't got nothing to do with whatever it is you're going on about, friend. And by the way, I didn't do anything wrong, so whoever told you that is right!

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[-] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 50 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

This isn't even a debate, the person who made Lemmy named themselves after a genocidal warlord lmao

They made a damn fine android app though

[-] amino 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

the developer is obviously a bad person but Dessalines simply carried out something resembling a Nuremberg trial rather than a "genocide".

there is no historical evidence of a genocide happening in 1804. the people claiming a "white genocide" happened are white French who would obviously be biased and would want to defend their "human rights" image on the global stage.

this is akin to the binary propaganda that paints October 7 as a "genocide" and Israel's actual genocide of Palestinians as a humanitarian mission to eradicate terrorism.

[-] michaelmrose@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

No he didn't. They killed the guilty and the innocent making no effort to distinguish between them. The soldiers mostly escaped whereas civilians were murdered. In fact most people in Haiti had little stomach for the sort of purge of French women and children he desired to the point where it doesn't happen until he tours a particular settlement.

One can argue all day long he was revenging very legit harms but it doesn't make him less of a monster and his people ultimately agreed and murdered him.

[-] amino 14 points 3 weeks ago

there was no distinction between "civilians" and soldiers because the people he targeted fought in the colonial National Guard. you would've known this if you had read the sources I linked though. from WP:

In a 2005 article titled “Caribbean genocide,” historian Philippe Girard argued that during the first four months of 1804, “on Dessalines’s orders, soldiers rounded up white planters, their families, French soldiers and the urban poor known as petits blancs, and killed them. Neither women nor children were spared.” Drawing heavily on Girard’s claims, podcaster Mike Duncan, in Season 4 of “Revolutions,” offers a sensationalized account of what he calls the “genocidal massacres” of 1804. He alleges that Haitian soldiers raped all the White women and concludes that Dessalines committed a “heinous crime.”

Did Dessalines execute French soldiers and colonists? Yes. But this fact has been exaggerated and taken out of historical context.

When the French evacuated in late 1803, they did not concede defeat. Instead, a small contingent of troops relocated to the city of Santo Domingo and began threatening to reinvade and “annihilate” the Black population. Dessalines soon learned of these plans. He also learned about support among White colonists for the recent French expedition. In this context, he ordered the execution of people who had “taken an active part in the different massacres and assassinations” by the French army. But, rather than targeted executions for the defense of the country, terrified colonists claimed to have witnessed the “massacre” of all the White people.

Historical documents reveal, however, that many White people remained in Haiti after this alleged genocide. For example, a partial census from October 1804 lists more than 600 White people in the district of Gros Morne alone. That same month — after all the White people were allegedly killed — a British captain claimed that 200 White women were in imminent danger of being “massacred” in Cap Haitien.

Claiming that Dessalines targeted civilians is also misleading. Many of those he executed fought in the colonial National Guard — militia units of male planters and merchants — which supported the French military expedition. Such claims also downplay the violence of colonialism. Settlers were enslavers, and as historian Vincent Brown has shown, slavery was war. Anti-colonialism is not genocide.

this rhetoric sounds like the Israeli hasbara painting settlers as innocent civilians when most of them either served in the IDF or are currently reservists.

[-] michaelmrose@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

When you massacre non-combatants, women, and children as factually did happen its genocide. The fact that not all jews were killed doesn't negate for instance that the holocaust happened. For every genocide there are apologists. The fact that the french as a people may logically be deemed to be more deserving of reciprocal violence doesn't justify it because violence is done to individuals by individuals. They could have forcibly relocated the people or allowed them to be re-located especially the old, women, and children. They broadly committed mass murder. The fact that the french did much worse doesn't make those immoral acts moral.

Anti-colonialism is not genocide

Genocide is genocide.

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[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 44 points 3 weeks ago

Uh... nobody at all has been pretending the Lemmy devs aren't tankies. The whole point of this community is dunking on tankies, but let's keep content at a level above "tankie bad haha".

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 3 weeks ago

wait, some people don't think they're tankies? I'd say they're pretty open about it.

[-] Jankatarch@lemmy.world 34 points 3 weeks ago

"Ah yes. These developers made an alternative to reddit and gave it to the people without any ads, spending hours without a paycheck for their code. Surely they must be business-owners."

[-] pebbles@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 weeks ago

Are you saying that if you aren't capitalist then you are a tanky? That may be a hint reductionist lol.

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[-] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 37 points 3 weeks ago

Huh? They are openly tankies why would this be a hot take?

[-] mintiefresh@piefed.ca 26 points 3 weeks ago

Thank goodness piefed exists :)

[-] Eldritch@piefed.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

There are some Growing Pains at the moment. But there were with Lemmy as well. I hope to see them better resolve soon enough. And I've been enjoying it plenty myself.

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[-] Sunshine@piefed.ca 14 points 3 weeks ago

It's not only that, they complain about everything with such fury cant they be happy about anything they have in life?

[-] j4k3@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Piefed dot world needs alexandrite or at least to get the interface buttons working much faster. I click upvote and it shows up like 5-10 seconds later. Without infinite scrolling I will never make it to page 3 either. That is all the interruption my brain needs for me to be more productive and useful and not on social media so it has to go lol. Self checkout needed w/infinite scroll drool

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[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 11 points 3 weeks ago

Get rid of transparency? What's happened now?

[-] AllegraGory@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago

I greatly enjoy the human creativity that went behind this meme. We need more high quality OC here.

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this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2025
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MeanwhileOnGrad

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