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Asking because of Air India 171. Pilots and their unions are objecting to it because of "privacy" reasons. What do you think about it?

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In cab recording is becoming increasingly common in some industries. For instance, the US trucking industry.

I would argue that the effectiveness depends a lot on the goals and attitude behind it. If the goal is to penalize the operator (driver/pilot/engineer/etc.) for every single infraction then it's just a huge waste of money. If the goal is to retain the best operators and help build a culture of safety then I can potentially see some value there.

[-] yermaw@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 week ago

Its brought in for safety reasons, all very valid and worthwhile, and 2 weeks later theyre watching the cameras live and giving pilots disciplinary meetings for drinking water on company time.

[-] Cptn_Slow@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago

A camera wouldn't have prevented anything, it would only make blame slightly easier.

Maybe improved mental health resources for pilots would be more helpful.

Or maybe not having a single point of failure for something so critical. Airplane engines are made to burn for a while before they become a problem, so why can't a two engine shutdown be inhibited below a certain radar altitude, or something of that nature?

Seems like a lot of pretty easy fixes that would work preemptively, rather than just another $20 part marked up to $20,000 because it comes with a FAA part number, that can only be used to assign blame after the fact.

Let me ask everyone this, would you want a camera in your office? Or should nurses have to wear body cameras all shift just so if something happens to a patient they can make sure they can blame the correct person?

[-] NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 14 points 1 week ago

A camera wouldn't have prevented anything, it would only make blame slightly easier.

Blame isn't necessarily the important thing for the outcome of an investigation. It is important to determine fault for the sake of preventing future failures. Did the crew flip the wrong switch, or did the system change state without the crew doing anything? Is there a training issue, or an overwork issue, or design flaw, or a maintenance problem?

You can't answer these questions without knowing the sequence of events prior to the failure, and the flight recorder data that shows a system state change might not be enough if you can't determine how or why that change happened.

[-] Cptn_Slow@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

My understanding is that we already know that information, we have the technology to know when the switch is moved, not just when the system acts as if the switch is moved.

I can't imagine the fuel cutoff switches aren't monitored, and if they aren't that's something that should already exist.

Once again, I will point out, and I really hope I'm not jinxing it, but the USA doesn't have cockpit cameras, and even still has a pretty exceptional safety record.

And I understand blame is not the intent, but pardon me if I don't believe that information won't be used against the crew. This pretty much killed single pilot operations, so now the other solution is to put the crews under a magnifying glass until you can find more problems you can use.

[-] Zak@lemmy.world 8 points 1 week ago

it would only make blame slightly easier

If anything other than an intentional act by ones of the pilots is to blame, then that's pretty useful. If the switches malfunctioned or there's a way to actuate them accidentally, that's a design flaw in the aircraft.

[-] Cptn_Slow@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

I get what you're saying, but how many thousands of cycles do you think the 787 has on it for this to be the first time they failed, and for two separate switches to fail seconds apart?

Accident investigators are very good at what they do, and I will be willing to bet they will be able to narrow it down to an actual cause, even without a camera.

[-] Zak@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

I'll wait for those very good accident investigators to release a conclusion before I speculate too much about how it happened. Maybe they'll have a conclusive answer based on other evidence, but if they don't, it's easy to imagine how a video could have helped.

[-] qfe0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 week ago

It doesn't prevent anything in the moment. It serves as an investigation tool and learning tool after the fact. And that is the real prevention tool. We don't have to rely on cockpit narration to know more about what's going on beyond the instrumentation and controls.

[-] Cptn_Slow@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

What's to learn? From this incident specifically.

That a pilot with a history of mental health issues most likely did it? What does that teach us? And what are we going to do about it?

Anything shy of treating it as a disability and retiring the pilot with full pay until their retirement age will result in people still hiding rather than looking for help when they need it.

The USA doesn't have cockpit cameras and has a pretty exceptional safety record, so I'm not sure what anyone is hoping to achieve other than blame someone, which is entirely contradictory to safety.

[-] hddsx@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago

Pretty easy fix? There might be an emergency checklist somewhere that requires you to shut off engines. Testing the fuel cut off is part of the pre flight, at least for small airplanes. I see no reason why it wouldn’t be for larger airplanes.

Unless you’re type rated in the airframe or work for Boeing, I would refrain from offering simple fixes.

Also radar altitude? Do they not use pitot tubes for altitude?

[-] Cptn_Slow@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago

Ohhhhhhh buddy you activated my trap card. I happen to have multiple type ratings, and I still consider myself far from an expert. However I do still hold a CFI so I'm going to try to teach you some stuff!

Every airplane that I've been required to have a type rating for has a radar altimeter. A lot of systems already use that information, from auto landings, to caution message inhibits, down to GLD spoilers. Watch any "landing an airliner" YouTube videos, I feel pretty safe in saying generally you will hear an audible "50, 40, 30, 20, 10", that information is usually derived from the radar altimeter.

While you are correct, there are emergency checklists that do require engine shutdowns, there are very few that would require that to be done weight off wheels and under 1000ft AGL. Off the top of my head, the ditching (landing in water) checklist would, but that could be tied to a ditching switch, if equipped, which since I don't have a 787 type, I don't know if it does, but I would guess it probably does.

Seeing as you know what a pitot tube is I'm going to assume you at least have some interest in flying. The pitot tube is used for airspeed, what you're probably thinking of is the other part of that system called the static port. That's used for things like altitude and vertical speed.

Circling back to my "simple fix", my current airframe has triple redundant hydraulics with dual redundant pumps for each. So for something that has that much redundancy, don't you think something as critical as an engine should require more than one switch to shutdown, at least at an altitude of high vulnerability? Just food for thought.

[-] hddsx@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

Lmao didn’t know we were playing yugioh, but I will defer to the CFI over my checks credentials former student pilot knowledge.

[-] frenchfryenjoyer@lemmings.world 2 points 1 week ago

Pitot tubes measure a plane's airspeed. It's static ports that measure barometric pressure. radar altitude directly measures the distance between the ground and the plane using radio waves is more useful on final approach

[-] socsa@piefed.social 2 points 1 week ago

My friend, you are not thinking outside the box! If the vessel's AI agent detects that the pilot has done something which is in conflict with the mission objectives, it can take control from the now redundant flesh being and get things back on track.

Like, this will 100% happen before I die unless we nuke ourselves first.

[-] helmet91@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

What are you working as? No need to answer. Everyone knows for themselves. Now imagine if you're constantly being recorded while on duty, every single critical step you make in your job. Even knowing nobody is gonna watch the footage unless there's an accident.

In my opinion it adds a stress factor, and as someone who had terrible health consequences of growing up under constant stress, I'd most likely refuse to work somewhere, where I'm being recorded.

MentourPilot has outlined some possibilities though. Out of all ideas of applications in the cockpit, probably the best is when the interaction with instruments are recorded, not the entire cockpit. But then I'm not sure how useful that is. Yes, in this particular accident involving AI171 it would be absolutely crucial. But in other accidents? Every accident is different. The FDR already records the state of instruments. It's highly unlikely that in other accidents such a footage would be useful. On the other hand, I find it likely that in other accidents other camera angles would be needed, which aren't recorded.

It's a really tough choice. Yes, safety first, but... pilots are humans too. We should rather do everything we can for them to not have any reason to do anything malicious, no matter if it's accidental or deliberate. Prefer their mental health, their well being, their training, their work-life balance.

[-] socsa@piefed.social 2 points 1 week ago

Yeah just put cameras aimed on the instrument clusters. Or maybe like body cams for the pilots. That way they can pick their nose and scratch their balls or labia in relative peace, but you still get that important data about how a pilot error gets made.

[-] char_stats@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 week ago

Yes, 100%. Storage shouldn't be a problem in this day and age on multi-million dollar vehicles. And the privacy issue could be worked around too, like video recordings only accessible offline or upon pilots consent, unless there's an accident and it's requested by the investigators. I might be ignorant with this, but I don't see the problem really.

[-] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

Are they mostly worried about audio? Because it really would make conversation on a four hour flight awkward if you knew everything was being recorded.

As for video, I feel like anything they don't want me to see is something they shouldn't be doing at work.

[-] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 week ago

Audio is already a thing in most conmercial flights. The pilots unions tried use the same "privacy" concern many decades ago but fortunately/unfortunately (depending on your perspective) they failed.

Now the question that remains is: What about the cameras?

[-] mkwt@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago
  1. Wait for the final report on Air India before taking any regulatory decisions.
  2. There's no real technical limitation today on doing this to the safety-critical engineering standards that are demanded on the flight deck. The first CVRs were based on the old half inch tape technology, and they only recorded something like 20 minutes on a circular tape.
  3. Wait for the final report first; but exactly what additional information do you hope to get off the video feed that won't be on the CVR + FDR? I am skeptical that this accident will not be "solvable" from the information that is available.
  4. If the regulators want to fight the pilot unions on this, they can. And they can probably win. Pilots don't necessarily have a ton of leverage on this kind of issue.
[-] mkwt@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

In particular, I expect that the final report will contain a lot more analysis of FADEC telemetry from the FDR. That simply wasn't analyzed in time for the preliminary report.

[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 10 points 1 week ago

I don't really see how this is a privacy thing. They're on the job, what's so private about that? Plenty of people are under video surveillance on the job.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 week ago

That doesn't make it not a privacy thing.

In many countries employers are not allowed to just arbitrarily video surveil you.

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 6 points 1 week ago

No. For what? Occasional and slight benefit to some subset of accident investigations?

Pilots deal with more than enough bullshit. Putting them on camera is outrageous.

[-] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 week ago

Why is audio okay, but video is where the line is drawn?

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 1 points 1 week ago

Audio is well established. Video is not, therefore drawing a line before it's actually happening makes sense.

Also it's practically the last possible piece of privacy for pilots.

Also it's not been demonstrated that the significant investment in cameras, video processing, video storage, and making said video processing and storage fast enough and physically robust enough to survive crashing, is actually worthwhile.

[-] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 week ago

Yes and no.

Yes because these people are at work; if they're not using a bathroom, having cameras recording them while they perform their job is within their employers purview to do.

The can object all they want, but it's something that is, and can be done for pretty much everyone working. Think about cashier's at grocery stores and convenience stores... They're almost always on camera all the time. I can hear someone saying "but that's different, it's for security".... Is it?

Having a flight recording of what the cockpit is doing during the flight, seems like something you would want when you are entrusting them with a multimillion dollar piece of machinery and hundreds of people's lives.

On the other hand, where the hell is that information going to go? The black box? Doubtful, that shit is already cram packed with stuff they need to record. On a device in the cockpit? Sure, you'll never find it in a crash, but you do you, I guess.

So I'm on the no side because unless you're putting it in the flight recorder, it's borderline useless for anything beyond scrutinizing someone doing their job. If you are putting it in the flight recorder, is there any information that's going to get left out to make space for the video of pilots picking their noses at 30,000 ft?

[-] fittedsyllabi@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago

Privacy reasons? Now I’m wondering what really happens in the cockpit.

[-] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago

Just watching some videos on the tablet during cruise (with headphones plugged in so the Cockpit voice recorder doesn't hear it)

Don't worry about the white stains, its just... coffee creamer... or whatever... 😉

Does it matter which pilot flipped the switch though? The switches got flipped, maybe intentionally, maybe by accident. They already know when they got flipped, and have the audio of what they were doing at the time. So they can probably figure if it was possibly related to a procedure in progress. That's about all they need. At best you might get evidence that it was intentional, which won't save any lives, and will likely make people feel even worse.

[-] SpatchyIsOnline@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

Yes, because if you can figure out which part of the procedure broke down leading to that switch being flipped, you can figure out ways to prevent that from happening again. That's much harder to do with just audio.

I'm not convince that requires video. Don't they communicate out loud what they are doing so the other person knows? And if it was a mistake, what switch should they have hit that wasn't recorded as being hit. They gotta do all that anyway.

this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2025
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