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submitted 1 year ago by L4s@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

Oxford study proves heat pumps triumph over fossil fuels in the cold::Published Monday in the scientific journal Joule, the research found that heat pumps are two to three times more efficient than their oil and gas counterparts, specifically in temperatures ranging from 10 C to -20 C.

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[-] marsokod@lemmy.world 104 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The Oxford study is really good. But I can't say the same about this article.

A COP of ~2 is not great for a heat pump, calling this a triumph is really weird. But from a journalist saying that a COP above 1 means the heat pump "creates energy", I am not sure I should have expected more.

But what's great is that this COP of 2, while bad, is not catastrophic. That's still in territory where gas boilers are more cost efficient that a heat pump, but unless you are living in a place that is consistently under -10C for several months, then a heat pump has overall lower running costs than a gas boiler. And you are starting to hit pretty northern territories with this.

What's important is also to be able to store heat during the day so that the heat pump runs at its most efficient time. But that can unfortunately coincide with the higher consumption time, so the timing needs to be adjusted properly to avoid using it during consumption peaks.

[-] CountVon@sh.itjust.works 55 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

a journalist saying that a COP above 1 means the heat pump “creates energy”

In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

But what’s great is that this COP of 2, while bad, is not catastrophic. That’s still in territory where gas boilers are more cost efficient that a heat pump, but unless you are living in a place that is consistently under -10C for several months, then a heat pump has overall lower running costs than a gas boiler. And you are starting to hit pretty northern territories with this.

I actually have a hybrid furnace/heat pump system, and I live in southern Ontario, Canada. The furnace is the auxiliary heat source and it only kicks in when the outdoor temp is below -6C. I've only had this system through one winter so far, but I think I could count the number of days the furnace ran without running out of fingers. My electricity bill went up some of course, but my winter gas bill went down a lot.

Edit to add: I wasn't shopping for a hybrid system in particular, but I got this upgrade through the Canada Greener Homes Grant and there were limitations on which units qualified for rebates. For my install (forced-air with existing duct-work), the hybrid systems were the ones that qualified.

[-] CoolMatt@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

I'm a 4th year AC/R mechanic born and raise in Southern Ontario, currently in BC.

You mebtioned your hydro was up but gas was down. Out of curiosity, can you tell me how your total cost of heating changed before/after your first winter with your heatpump? Did you end up saving money?

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[-] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 year ago

Even the study could have used some better clarification on geothermal HVACs, which is the direction we should all be heading towards:

Ground-source heat pumps typically provide a very high level of efficiency, even during cold weather. The reason is that soil temperature does not change significantly between seasons, resulting in a higher—and more constan—COP. In addition, ground-source heat pumps do not need to expend energy on defrosting.

This commentary focuses on the performance of air-source heat pumps in mild European winters with average January temperatures above −10°C. We refer to these heating conditions as “mild cold climates”, whereas those with average temperatures below −10°C in the coldest month are designated “extreme cold climates”.

No, why?! Gimme the COP on geothermal. Google tells me it's 3 to 5, but I would have liked a better source.

Regardless, while I understand that we should spread out our solutions, I don't understand why we're not talking more about geothermal HVAC systems. Household solar is all the rage, but my gas company is still charging me $25 a month just to have the gas on, never mind the winter costs.

If we're talking about $5K a hole to dig for geothermal, that seems like a hell of a lot more cost-effective solution than either gas-based HVACs, or these air-based heat pumps. If it's an area with only mild winters, you probably only need the one hole, which will last for 100 years at least. At most, we're talking about 3-4 holes for a large house in Canada, and that's going to pay for itself in 10-15 years.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Geothermal has advantages, but air source is getting so good that it's really becoming a niche.

Spending $5K on insulation or heat recovery ventilation will be more effective than spending it on a hole.

I saw an awesome home refurbishment in Montreal, they just went all-in on insulation. The heating was just done with a 500W resistive heating coil, just for the coldest days. They didn't even have a heat pump, except for the heat pump boiler. The heat recovery ventilation did the rest.

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[-] DarthBueller@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They're only two to three times more efficient if they aren't frozen solid. Don't know how it works in Canada, but my mini-split heat pump can't handle a week of 10F let alone -20 C - sure it will put out some heat, but it absolutely needs to be supplemented with my wood stove. And I live in the South. Maybe there's some new high tech heat pumps that cost a fortune and don't freeze over in the insane temps of the great white north? EDIT: hey, folks, how about actually responding instead of downvoting me? If I don't have a clue, please enlighten me. Fuckers.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 53 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your mini-split isn't designed to function as a heat pump at low temperature.

In places like Sweden, they also use heatpumps that are designed for those conditions.

In other news, don't drive in a Swedish winter with summer tires.

[-] DarthBueller@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

Excellent. Now I know that there are different classes of heat pump. Mine is not for prolonged crazy-low temps, others are. Thank you.

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Indeed, but yours is probably cheaper and more effective at cooling when it's hot and humid out.

For people up north, they will buy a "cold climate air source heat pump". In temperate regions, an "air source heat pump" will suffice, while down south you will buy an "A/C with a heating mode" (also called reversible A/C).

And it's not just about whether the coils can defrost. The whole machinery and refrigerant are different to optimize under those conditions. A cold climate heat pump has a setup that is more similar to a freezer than it is to an A/C.

Sorry about the downvotes. People need to re-learn internet etiquette.

[-] DarthBueller@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

This is the most informative answer yet. Thanks.

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[-] TooManyGames@sopuli.xyz 21 points 1 year ago

My air heat pump has been ticking away happy for 15 years with no issues. It's worked fine warming up the house when it's -20°C in the winter and cooled nicely in the up to +30°C in the summer.

I do supplement it using electric heating and a fireplace though.

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[-] aircooledJenkins@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Yes, there are cold weather heat pumps that can thaw the coils to keep operating. There is a point where they just can't continue to operate.

When I design a heat pump system in cold climates, I always include a secondary hear source that kicks in if the heat pump gets overwhelmed. Might be a gas section in a furnace. Might be an electric heater in a fan coil. Might be electric baseboards or wall heaters.

[-] SoggyBread@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Theres different technology but there are some that can function to -32° F and they often have a feature that allows them to detect when theyre frozen up and defrost and then automatically switch back to heating

[-] DarthBueller@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Mine has a defrost cycle but it doesn't work very well. But then again, it's use case is primarily AC - it only gets frigid temps in my area every couple years. EDIT: yes, downvote me for stating my own personal experience, asshats.

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[-] NatakuNox@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

Heat pumps are A/C in reverse. It makes total sense instead of using fire to heat air.

[-] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

brb putting in my window unit from the outside

[-] __dev@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

You'd need to collect the condensate, but that would actually work quite well.

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[-] Gordon@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

You think you are being a smartass but that's exactly what heat pumps do. The only functionality difference between an AC unit and a heat pump is a reversing valve.

But without a reversing valve you could put your AC unit in backwards and heat your house in the winter.

The whole premise of an AC unit is to take the heat from inside the house and put it outside, leaving you with cooler air inside.

So in the winter a heat pump simply reverses the flow of the freon and moves the heat from outside to inside. Yes. You are "cooling the whole neighborhood" when you run a heat pump.

[-] Leviathan@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

WELL FUCKING OBVI-

Oh right, I forgot some people are really pulling for this fossil fuel think to pull through.

[-] psycho_driver@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

A/C guy who's the son of an A/C guy here. Heat pumps lose efficiency the colder it gets. I wouldn't bother with one if you're in a northern climate. Lower midwest, you might be able to save money with a heat pump over natural gas, but it will depend heavily on the cost of the respective energy. For me, in the central US, we have great prices on gas and somewhat crappy prices on electricity (vs most surrounding regions) and it's definitely cheaper for me to stick with gas heat.

[-] atempuser23@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

So this is exactly what the article is about and up to -4 f heat pumps are more efficient.

If your the son of an hvac guy maybe your information is based on older installed units. I had a heat pump installed in my fathers home in the northeast ( non coastal) and I was shocked it ran well all year. I had heard the some rumor that you had.

Technology advanced and facts change.

[-] yata@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago

Your information is outdated. It is even clearly mentioned in the one-sentence summary in the OP:

Oxford study proves heat pumps triumph over fossil fuels in the cold::Published Monday in the scientific journal Joule, the research found that heat pumps are two to three times more efficient than their oil and gas counterparts, specifically in temperatures ranging from 10 C to -20 C.

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[-] QuarterSwede@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

This is the correct take for a conventional heat pump. However, there are relatively new geothermal heat pumps that can heat down to -30°C (-22°F) and are much more efficient.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/heat-pump-faq-1.6824634

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[-] joshhsoj1902@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thankfully heat pumps have gotten better since your father's day. And natural gas is only going to keep getting more expensive. For a price of equipment that will last you 15-25 years it's becoming harder to justify gas heating.

For new builds ground source heat pumps should become more standard, they cost more, but they'll save a lot in the long run.

[-] Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

But its all irrelevant because the most effective way to keep warm is to continue with global warming. Soon we wont have a cold season to worry about. 😜

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[-] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 25 points 1 year ago

Maybe someone can help me answer this question as I'll be replacing my old furnace in the near future and am curious about the heat pump systems.

Studies like this are only looking at efficiency and not total energy usage or heating capacity so how do you compare apples to apples? A high efficiency forced-air furnace using natural gas is something like 95% efficient, and a heat pump can be something like 150%-200% (because you're moving the heat instead of creating it), but the total output capacity matters as well as the efficiency of generating and transmitting the electricity. Also, I don't think the power needed to run the fans gets factored in from what I can tell and I expect a heat pump system to need fans running far more often and for longer. Since heat is constantly being lost to outside then whichever can work faster might have an advantage keeping ahead of that entropy too...

I'm living in a climate considered "extreme cold" in this study btw. Best I've been able to figure out, a gas furnace is still much cheaper to install/operate (it's pretty cheap here) but is also still be better for the environment as my electricity tends to be generated primarily from natural gas and coal (at an efficiency lower than a natural gas furnace does).

[-] alvvayson@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Under the conditions you describe, a hybrid setup will work best.

In a hybrid setup, the heat pump is providing most heat when it isn't very cold, while the traditional heat source is providing heat on really cold days.

A few years ago, the temperature where the system would switch was 5 C. Nowadays it's more like -10 C. As heat pumps get better, hybrid loses territory, so you could also just wait a few years and then switch.

Hybrid gives best of both worlds at the cost of added complexity.

If you have A/C then the cheap way to do hybrid is to keep the traditional heating system but use the A/C in heating mode on mild days.

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[-] vector_zero@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

That's great, but fossil fuels are often available in the event of a power outage, and that can save lives during a winter storm. Availability is just as important as efficiency, and until we can make our power grid more resilient, we need to factor that in.

[-] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 54 points 1 year ago

The vast majority of gas boilers use electronics to function. In a powercut they are also dead.

Now if you're talking diesel generator back ups, then far enough.

[-] Rocketpoweredgorilla@lemmy.ca 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you have a generator, you can easily run the heat pump off of them as well, but it's seldomly needed... if ever.

I live in Canada where it's commonly -30c or colder in the winter. heat pumps work fine around here and quite a few places have them, from houses to factories. The only problem is the initial set up costs, because the lines have to get buried below the frost line (6-8 feet down). After that it's smooth sailing for the most part.

Even in power outages, heated floors can retain their heat for much longer than conventional means, sometimes up to a day or two.

And the best part, is in the summer, you just reverse the system and it's an air conditioner pumping your house heat into the ground to use again next winter.

[-] coffeebiscuit@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Even gas stoves won’t work when the power is down, for the same reason.

[-] DarthBueller@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago
[-] GregoryTheGreat@programming.dev 12 points 1 year ago

Some won’t let gas flow if there is no electricity.

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[-] J4g2F@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

The 2 times (living not with my parents anymore) I had now electric power unplanned was of course when it was cold. However the fancy central heating running on gas was also not working. As the main unit also needed electric power.

So I could still cook my food but that's was it. No heat. But that being said in my entire life we lost power (including as a kid) maybe 5 times and only for a couple of hours. In 33 years

I now have a heat pump and for cooking induction. So in a power outage I need to grab some camping gear. But I will probably survive for a couple of hours without heat.

But if you have regular power outages you and everybody in your country should probably vote and make your voices heard. If you live in a country where most people can afford heat pumps, the government can afford fixing the power grid.

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[-] pHr34kY@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

create energy

Ummm... that's not how it works.

[-] girthero@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

They actually added a correction at the end for that

[-] socsa@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

I don't know that we really needed a study for this. You can find the COP vs temp vs capacity curves for every heat pump out there. This will tell you exactly how many BTUs of heat the pump will produce given a watt of electricity input. I guess they were just validating that the curves were accurate?

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this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2023
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