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submitted 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by Wilshire@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world
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[-] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 36 points 3 weeks ago

Given the mechanical saftey built into those switches, Unfortunately I guess that leaves us with two reasonable possibilities:

A) One of the pilots was somehow mistaken on the function of those switches and toggled them when they should not have. Then they genuinely thought they hadn't when asked why they had cutoff fuel.

Or

B) One of the pilots chose to cut off fuel supply to both engines, intentionally bringing down the plane. They then lied to the other pilot when asked why they'd cutoff fuel.

[-] burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago

the planes also arent supposed to automatically dip downwards but here we are

[-] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 weeks ago

You can't exactly expect a plane to keep flying when you've commanded the engines to stop running/taken away their fuel at such a critical time...

[-] dalekcaan@feddit.nl 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I think they're referring to the software issues that bought down multiple 737 MAXs, though it shouldn't be relevant here because 787s don't have the modified software that caused the crashes.

[-] nuko147@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

He is blaming Boeing, or more correctly he doesn't trust Boeing to be 100% innocent.

[-] atomicorange@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

Could have been cut off by one pilot as part of a troubleshooting attempt, maybe? Thinking “it’s not cut off, just a temporary state of affairs” or something like that. Just trying to think of ways this could be a miscommunication instead of blatant misconduct :(

[-] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 9 points 3 weeks ago

There is no procedure that involves cutting off fuel to both engines while in-flight; one at a time, but not both. Then, there is no procedure that ever involves touching those controls during takeoff. Finally; there would be communication between the pilots discussing any such troubleshooting, they wouldn't just take it upon themselves to start flipping switches without at the very least letting the other pilot know what they're doing. Particularly when it comes to troubleshooting; there is a strict set of checklists they go through as a team, with one reading out questions, the other responding with data/answers from the instruments and the first confirming that response.

These were both experienced pilots with ample flight hours; they knew what they were doing at those controls. I'm not going to throw human error out the window entirely, but it's not looking very likely unfortunately.

Either that plane was brought down intentionally, or there was a stunning error in judgment wildly disregarding procedure in that cockpit that was not communicated at all. (note: the mics record to the blackbox continuously, they're not ptt, if one of the pilots had said something, it'd be on the tape.)

[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago

There’s no communication between the two pilots before the switches were moved to cutoff to suggest they encountered any problems prior to fuel cutoff.

[-] atomicorange@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, I didn’t realize how soon after takeoff this was when I proposed that idea either. There’s no way shutting off the fuel during takeoff would be a reasonable decision.

[-] frenchfryenjoyer@lemmings.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

both pilots were experienced and had also passed breathalyser tests before the flight too (source)

[-] Wooki@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Breathalysers don't detect tired or suicidal pilots.

The interim report stated copilot was pilot flying meaning they only focus on flying and he had also just flown already today. Captain however was his first flight in his shift and was also pilot monitoring.

[-] Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 35 points 3 weeks ago

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/07/11/india/air-india-crash-report-intl-latam

This article has a photo of the switches in question, and goes into more detail about how they work.

[-] Wilshire@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago
[-] Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago

Apparently they need to be pulled to change their orientation, I'm wondering if the mechanism simply wore out?

[-] dastanktal@lemmy.ml 9 points 3 weeks ago

Not likely. These things are checked before every flight.

[-] hddsx@lemmy.ca 18 points 3 weeks ago
[-] dastanktal@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago

If that does not take away from the fact that these Pilots were very well skilled.

If the company is at fault it's due to over scheduling since preliminary report indicates no mechanical failures.

[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 weeks ago

Skilled yes, but apparently concealing a mental health issue. This is a huge cultural issue in aviation. Nobody wants to lose their job, so you just bury it.

[-] dastanktal@lemmy.ml 14 points 3 weeks ago

There's absolutely no proof that these Pilots were suicidal. I think speculation of such is disrespectful until further evidence shows such things such as in the case of MH 370 which is highly speculated with a lot of evidence to be a pilot suicide.

[-] hddsx@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 weeks ago

I’m not the person you replied to and I’m not familiar with India’s certificate process, but the FAA is a stickler about mental health - even for a PPL on a class 3. It doesn’t matter if you’re getting treatment or not. The fact that you have any history of mental illness is huge. It seems really fucking stupid to me, especially if you are getting help.

I hope to god indias certificate procedures aren’t as ridiculous as the FAA

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[-] deranger@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

All evidence points to a deliberate toggling of the fuel cutoff switches, and whoever did it then denied they did anything on CVR. It’s not an issue with the plane itself, this is either someone deliberately crashing the plane or someone absentmindedly crashing the plane.

[-] dastanktal@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Really, there's evidence that the switch was purposely flipped to commit suicide?

I didn't see that in the report.

Tell you what.

Why don't you take this as an opportunity to prove to everyone that you're not baselessly slandering these pilots.

Support this opinion with a quote from some sort of evidence.

Because otherwise you look like a racist dick.

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[-] hddsx@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

It’s not the skills I’m concerned about

[-] bulwark@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

There are redundant systems on modern planes that can handle multiple failures. If they're saying it's fuel related my guess is dirty jet fuel. It would explain a stuck fuel valve. There's lots of ground crew checks before flight, and one is checking the fuel tanks for contamination. Just a speculation.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

From the article:

The plane’s fuel was tested and found to be of satisfactory quality,

[-] Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 weeks ago

These switches are evidently monitored by the aircraft's systems, as the investigators seem to know for a fact when these switches were moved. This is not a "failure", unless the switch moved by itself.

I'm not sure why you're trying to "I reckon" this, when we know why the engines stopped.

[-] Supervisor194@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

So I know there has to be a reason why these switches are vitally important but doesn't it seem weird that you can take a catastrophic action like turning the fuel supply off when you're in mid-takeoff? If you try and put a modern car in reverse at 65 MPH, the car is like "haha no" and ignores you.

[-] neuracnu 8 points 3 weeks ago

From the article...

The fuel switches were “designed to be intentionally moved,” according to CNN safety analyst David Soucie, who said cases in which all fuel switches were turned off accidentally are “extremely rare.”

“Throughout the years, those switches have been improved to make sure that they cannot be accidentally moved and that they’re not automatic. They don’t move themselves in any manner,” Soucie said on Friday.

And the photo of the throttle (middle) and fuel cutoff switches (bottom):

https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/c-gettyimages-951922648-20250711223914009.jpg?q=w_1160%2Cc_fill%2Ff_webp

There's just one-level-deeper of questions I'd have here. How were the switches designed such that they prevented accidental activation? Because it looks like they just get simply flipped down. Could it be pull-out-and-down? Or maybe there's a lot of resistance during the switch action?

[-] halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

How were the switches designed such that they prevented accidental activation? Because it looks like they just get simply flipped down. Could it be pull-out-and-down? Or maybe there's a lot of resistance during the switch action?

The lever-lock fuel switches are designed to prevent accidental activation - they must be pulled up to unlock before flipping, a safety feature dating back to the 1950s. This isn't a new or weird design. It's essentially the standard used in basically every plane because it works.

"It would be almost impossible to pull both switches with a single movement of one hand, and this makes accidental deployment unlikely," a Canada-based air accidents investigator, who wanted to remain unnamed, told the BBC.

[-] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 8 points 3 weeks ago

They have metal detents; you have to pull the lever out, then push it down against a reasonably heavy spring.

These had to be very deliberately moved to the cutoff position.

[-] Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 weeks ago

You can also just throttle back, which would have the same effect.

[-] Supervisor194@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yeah and of course, you can also just ram the thing into the ground. I'd hate to think this was a deliberate act, but it's certainly possible.

[-] roscoe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

If one pilot tries to ram it into the ground, or just throttles back, the other pilot can fight them for the controls and possibly prevent a crash. When those switches are flipped the engines almost immediately flame out. Even if the other pilot quickly flips them back and prevents the first pilot from doing anything else, it takes time for the engines to automatically relight and spool back up. Done right around liftoff, which seems to be the case from the RAT deployment, there might not be anything the other pilot can do no matter how fast they act.

Edit: According to the flight data recorder, the cutoff switches were flipped 3 seconds after takeoff, one was flipped back on 10 seconds later, the other flipped back 4 seconds after that, and the recording ended 15 seconds later.

[-] obinice@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

So, so many poorly informed people in here jumping to conclusions, many of which were already ruled out in the preliminary report.

I don't know any more than what's in that document myself.

Perhaps some of the armchair aircraft safety investigators in here might want to at least skim the details before coming up with wild theories? Or at least provide reasoning and evidence to support them.

May those who lost their lives, and their loved ones, find peace and closure as best they can once we have all the details. Until then, it would be crass to speculate, especially as non-experts not privvy to the details of the investigation.

[-] frenchfryenjoyer@lemmings.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

If I remember correctly, those switches need to be physically lifted up and rotated for the engines to switch from RUN to CUTOFF. there's also physical guards there to prevent pilots from knocking them. here's a diagram of the layout (source).

I've read theories that the pilot who manipulated the fuel switches could've mistook them for the stabiliser cutout switch but the switches are very different. the timing is also sus because it would've been at just the right time for things to have not been recoverable. 10 seconds earlier and the takeoff could've been aborted, 10 seconds later and the plane could've had enough altitude and speed to land in a safer area. also the way the pilot reacted to the other pilot suggests he saw the other pilot shut off the fuel to both engines one after the other and was in a state of shock

[-] SpermHowitzer@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 weeks ago

They lift up over a gate and you move them down to shut off, rather than turning. There’s no guard over them though. They’re not really close to any other switches you’d be manipulating at any time, especially right after takeoff, and they are a different shape than any other switch (Boeing likes to shape their switches differently so that if you grab the wrong one you’ll feel it). I cannot imagine how one could accidentally move one, let alone both switches do cutoff. But sometimes my brain does inexplicably dumb shit, so I dunno.

[-] frenchfryenjoyer@lemmings.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

by guards I meant the guard brackets which help prevent accidental movement (source) but I agree I just can't see this being done accidentally. the look and feel of the switches are just so different it'd be almost like mistaking a red light for a green one with normal colour vision or something. it's still early days so i'm sure more will come out about the history of the pilots with time. if this does turn out to be intentional it's pretty scary because it's something that's unrecoverable at that phase of flight if it happens and that needs to not happen again

[-] SpermHowitzer@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 weeks ago

Oh, ya, ok. Those guards are really more to stop you whacking the side of the switches and breaking the plastic lens and lightbulbs in the top of the switch, but because the switches move up and down and not side to side, those brackets really have no impact on the actual moving of the switches, accidental or otherwise.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

When I watched the crash video, I thought that something cut the fuel off. Because that was the most likely reason for all engines to stop.

So, if the pilot or copilot did not do it (I assume it is not just a switch that you can trigger accidentally), what other system has the capability to switch off all fuel lines? Fire suppression systems? Some general "switch off"? And how hard would it be to restart fuel supply? Is it possible to override e.g. such a fire suppression system?

[-] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Both the left and right switchs were moved to 'cutoff', one pilot recognized this and asked the other pilot why, the other pilot denied doing it, then the switches were returned to 'run' and the engines began to re-light (this is all straight from the black box recorder). It was too late to recover though, so the plane went down.

There is a mechanical detent requiring you to pull each switch out, then down. They had to be moved deliberately.

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[-] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 2 points 3 weeks ago

The report specifically says that "cutoff switches transitioned from RUN to CUTOFF position one after another with a time gap of 01 sec". They were later switched back to RUN. It wasn't some other system.

This is such a bizarre situation that with just the voice recording we will probably never know what really happened.

[-] mojofrododojo@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago

one would think such a fail state should be only accessible after the user has bypassed and confirmed the action.

let's be honest, do we trust boeing at this point?

[-] clutchtwopointzero@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

is it clear that FADEC cannot cut-off via software?

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this post was submitted on 12 Jul 2025
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