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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/fediverse@lemmy.world

I see a lot of misinformation about bluesky here, so I want to address a lot of the talking points against atproto/bluesky.

This is partially inspired by accounts like mastodon migration and feditips being really annoying about bluesky.

How Bluesky Works

I see a lot of people misunderstanding how it works.
The network has three main parts:

  1. A PDS -- This stands for Personal Data Server. These store information in records, like who you are following, your posts, who you are blocking and your images.
  2. A relay -- These crawl PDSes and keep a copy of all the records on them. They give a "Firehose" of all the data on the network (that they crawled).
  3. An AppView -- These index and work through the data from the firehose. All interactions are handled through these, meaning if someone follows me on bluesky, that app.bsky.graph.follow record will be crawled by the relay, and recieved by the AppView. https://bsky.app/ is an Appview. Appviews don't always have to use the relays, https://whtwnd.com/ connects to PDSes directly.

This is different to ActivityPub, where if I follow someone, my server sends that information directly to the other person's server.

Common misconceptions

An atproto relay is too expensive to run.

https://atproto.africa/ is a second full-network relay run by the blacksky team. We already have a second relay, and they're not even that expensive to run anymore, a lot of people run non-archival (meaning it doesn't backfill every post) relays for less than $40 a month.

There is no instances available except for bsky.social

bsky.social isn't actually an instance, its just the domain name assigned to users by default. This is explained here: https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f

Wafrn has (opt-in) bluesky support, they act as a PDS and AppView, so if bluesky disappears tomorrow they can switch to the atproto.africa relay. (There is DID:PLC which is a problem, but I'll get to that later.)

You can't defederate bsky.social, this proves atproto is centralised!

https://app.wafrn.net/fediverse/post/f8fc8da8-cd7e-4fae-a895-ac59dc28088f also explains this, bsky.social is just the name assigned to users, each PDS has names like https://brittlegill.us-west.host.bsky.network/ (where my account is).

While you could ignore records from a specific PDS on the App layer, its pretty pointless, since atproto is portable/content addressed, meaning a user could seamlessly move to another PDS. (AP does support moving, but its pretty seamful.)

(While I was writing this someone posted a pretty good blogpost about this: https://blog.cyrneko.eu/there-is-no-bsky-social-instance)

Bluesky can censor people in turkey, this proves they're centralised!

Those posts weren't removed, people on third party bluesky apps in turkey could still see them.
People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service which hides those posts, as the government requires it.
If a person unsubscribes, or uses a third party app/server the posts are still there.

Bluesky isn't decentralised as someone was banned for pointing out the head of T&S liked jailbait porn.

That person came back on a different PDS. They literally are still on bluesky because they joined a different server.

Bluesky went down due to a DDoS, this proves they are centralised!

The DDoS only crashed the Bluesky PDSes. People self hosting were fine.


Wafrn

Wafrn is a federated tumblr alternative. It started off as a tumblr clone, the dev added AP support, and eventually, Atproto support.
Its a great example of how bluesky can be built on.
If bluesky disappeared tomorrow, Wafrn could switch relays to atproto.africa, and still interact with people on other PDSes.


AppViewLite

appviewlite is a cool project I forgot to mention in the original post. It lets you self host an extremely lightweight Appview.
You can crawl PDSes yourself, eliminating the need for a relay.
https://github.com/alnkesq/AppViewLite

The main reason I made this post is because so many people are blindly anti-atproto, without fully understanding how it works and how it can be improved.

There is obviously problems with it, but it does a lot right. (There's a lot ActivityPub should do, like content addressing, DIDs and composable moderation).

I also think we could do with a better bridge. bridgy isn't really cutting it right now.


Note on did:plc, its the only centralised part of the network as of now, its essentially the underlying ID every account has. It is possible to use a did:web id instead, which is tied to a website name.


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[-] Chozo@fedia.io 46 points 1 month ago

PDSes and relays exist at the whim of Bluesky's corporate entity. Having all of the endpoints on the network controlled by a single agent is what makes Bluesky centralized. If Bluesky decided so, your server can be removed from their network and is functionally useless at that point. They decide who is and is not allowed to be a part of Bluesky.

For contrast, no such governing body exists with ActivityPub networks. Nobody can decide whether or not an instance should be removed from the network, they can only choose whether or not to federate with that instance. If you wanted to truly silence a Lemmy instance, for example, it would take the cooperation of all the major Lemmy admins to defederate, and is an entirely democratic process as a result.

EDIT: To clarify, ATProto is not what is centralized, "Bluesky" the platform utilizing ATProto, is what's centralized.

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Well, that problem also exists with mastodon.social and a lot of the actual fediverse.
Its less decentralised, but its still distributed.

[-] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 21 points 1 month ago

Mastodon is more open than you think.

You made a post to attempt to dispell what you consider a misunderstanding about BlueSky, yet your comment suggests you dont understand the Fediverse.

Well, that problem also exists with mastodon.social

No, it doesn't. There are thousands of instances, some with hundreds of thousands of users. If you sort the instance list by active users, the population spreads out even more, because smaller instances have more active users.

and a lot of the actual fediverse.

Wrong again. Lemmy.world is about 30% of Lemmy, and less when you include Mbin, PieFed, etc.

Its less distributed, but its still decentralised.

I run a Fedi instance connected to hundreds of others. If one, even a large one, defederates me, it does not cut me off. If I ran a PDS, I'd be connected to BlueSky, and they can do what they want.

You are rationalizing this to yourself because you like BlueSky.

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

You're misinterpreting my comment, I said that getting cut off a large server is a problem in any network. The problem is worse on bluesky, but that can change.
If I run a PDS, I connect to bluesky and other instances as well. I can get cut off bluesky's server, but there is other servers.

I'm not rationalising anything, I just think the discourse around bluesky is toxic, and I want to at least make it less annoying.
I don't even like bluesky, I do like the underlying protocol though.

[-] fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 8 points 1 month ago

No I'm not, you're just hot-swapping between ATProto and BlueSky, cherry picking the best parts of whichever to suit the debate. See: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/47335289/19626444

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 month ago

No, because you said bluesky is run by Jack dorsey, and you're critising bluesky, not atproto, like you said.

[-] underscores@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 month ago

That's at a very different level. With dot social it's about a quarter of the active users on the fediverse, whereas bluesky is probably something like 95% centralized in practice. It seems to keep improving, but right now it's basically impossible to use without mostly interacting with bsky.

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[-] 6nk06@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

People in Turkey are automatically subscribed to a Moderation Service

Sucking the dick of any government is censorship. That's my opinion and it's not the American version of free speech but I dont care because I'm not American.

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 17 points 1 month ago

Its censorship no matter what, but it doesn't prove bluesky is centralised.

[-] RickyRigatoni@retrolemmy.com 10 points 1 month ago

You could say it was irelephant

[-] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 month ago

It is, but it's also necessary sometimes. If governments didn't have any power and could just be ignored or openly defied without consequences, we wouldn't have to care about what they want to censor. But they do have power, despite all our wishing that they didn't, and we can't organize a resistance to them without careful maneuvering and sometimes at least making an appearance of playing by their rules. Government censorship you can unsubscribe from is objectively better than censorship you can't. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

[-] drspod@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 month ago

Christine Lemmer-Webber made an excellent blog post ~6 months ago titled How Decentralized is Bluesky really?

Give that a read.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 month ago

I was wrong in my read on things; the new relays are pulling the entire network. Definitely a different experiment at that point.

Mea culpa on misrepresenting.

[-] vermaterc@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 month ago

+1, I came here just to paste a link to it

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I don't mean this in an agressive way, but did you really think I haven't read that?

[-] poVoq@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 month ago

Well, if you have read it then your cherry picking of minor ways Bluesky is slighly less closed comes accross as pretty bad faith 🤷

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

I have read it, and a lot of the problems have been addressed.
Bluesky is still very early. There was an awkward period where lemmy was mostly lemmy.ml.

I'm not trying to cherry pick anything, I'm just addressing arguments against it I have seen.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 month ago

Lemmy.ml, lemmy.world, lemmy.zip and any other instance run on the same software

Wafrn doesn't run the same software as Bluesky.social

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 month ago

My point was that the network was fairly centralised in the beginning. The people behind atproto.africa are working on an alternate bluesky appview anyway.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 month ago

Good to hear!

The main difference is still that every work put into Bluesky.social can not be reused by other "servers", unlike Lemmy

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[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Interesting, thanks

I just had a quick look at a random Bsky account:

To see external users you need to be logged in. You can view their profile on their actual instance.

Is the login wall on purpose?

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 month ago

For wafrn? Yes. I don't actually know their reasoning for it.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Should BSky go login wall one day the same way Twitter does, then wafrn wouldn't be an alternative

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

I asked in the wafrn discord, they said it was for privacy. fwiw, they don't show remote fediverse profiles either

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[-] Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.social 24 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There are only 15,000 out of 36 Million users that are on servers not owned by Bluesky.

99.96% of users being on one instance isn't Decentralised even if the technology supports it in theory. If 99.96% of users were on lemmy.world, I wouldn't call lemmy decentralised even if the technology allows it in theory.

🧮 Decentralization Scoring System (v1.3)

📋 Breakdown (Estimates)

Platform    Score Visualization                           
📧 Email          95 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🐹 Lemmy          79 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🐘 Mastodon        74 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩                 
🟣 PeerTube        94 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🖼 Pixelfed        42 🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧🟧
🔵 Bluesky        14 🟥🟥🟥                                 
🟥 Reddit           3 🟥 

Source

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago

Define decentralised.
As per RFC 9518: Centralization, Decentralization, and Internet Standards,

[...] "centralization" is the state of affairs where a single entity or a small group of them can observe, capture, control, or extract rent from the operation or use of an Internet function exclusively.

[Decentralization is when] "complete reliance upon a single point is not always required" (citing Baran, 1964)

[...] federation, i.e., designing a function in a way that uses independent instances that maintain connectivity and interoperability to provide a single cohesive service.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Top Provider User Share: bsky.social ≈ 99% → Score: 0/30
Top Provider Content Share: Nearly all content on bsky.social → Score: 0/30
Self-Hosting: Server: PDS hosting possible but very niche and poorly documented → Score: 4/20
Self-Hosting: Client: Mostly official client; some 3rd party → Score: 10/20

Total: 14/100

Interesting score

[-] Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.social 6 points 1 month ago

The scoring system isn't perfect, and is subjective, but it's a good starting point to try and measure if something is decentralised.

I forsee a lot of big companies pretending to be Open-Source and decentralised because it's good for profits. Just like they pretend to care about Gay rights etc. When it suites them

[-] Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

I like the wiki definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralization Decentralization or decentralisation is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.

Based on this and other definitions I've seen, Bluesky is NOT decentralised.

I struggle to see how a platform of which 99.96% of it's users are controlled by one entity is Decentralised.

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[-] OpenStars@piefed.social 9 points 1 month ago

I hope I am not adding to the problem here as well. It seems that obviously Bluesky is neither fully centralized nor fully decentralized. Is there a statement about just how much of either it is?

Although that might be complicated - like someone could say that Lemmy is fairly centralized, bc if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users and perhaps half the communities (and PieFed even more so, with PieFed.social representing an even higher fraction of users and communities on it).

So there is a distinction between Bluesky the service as it currently is implemented and Bluesky the protocol, the former of which is fairly centralized but the latter is more expandable?

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 month ago

if you block Lemmy.World then you lose half the users

35% (16k out of 46k MAU): https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/list

[-] Kierunkowy74@piefed.social 11 points 1 month ago

Or even 33% as we should count PieFed and Mbin too (this makes 48k MAU overall). All 3 "apps" make one network.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 1 month ago

Good point!

[-] OpenStars@piefed.social 8 points 1 month ago

Nice. I remember when it was 80%, then it fell to half, 40%, and apparently now is closer to a third than half. Excellent decentralizing!:-)

[-] Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

~99.96% of all Bluesky users and content is on Bluesky servers.

Bluesky is decentralised in theory, but in reality it is not. Until one entity doesn't own over 90% of the users and content, I really can't see how it can be seen as decentralised.

[-] KentNavalesi@mstdn.social 6 points 1 month ago

@Ek-Hou-Van-Braai
@OpenStars

It's not a matter of how many users, but whether those users have the option to switch servers. By the former standard, mastodon would be considered centralized simply because of mastodon.social.

[-] Ek-Hou-Van-Braai@piefed.social 7 points 1 month ago

In theory Bluesky users have the option to switch, but in practice they don't 36 Million users can't just switch to other servers only catering for ~15,000 users.

mastodon.social has ~30% of the active users, which is a lot, but if it went down Mastodon would continue working for most users.

You can't compare the 99.96% market share Bluesky has with that.

[-] OpenStars@piefed.social 8 points 1 month ago

Looking at your other comment on this thread, thank you - that kind of breakdown was precisely what I was hoping to see!:-)

So Bluesky is more decentralized than Reddit (or Facebook), but barely, and far less so than any Fediverse platform currently.

I think what OP was trying to convey was less the current state of affairs and more the underlying protocol itself, which they re-released now under a separate post.

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[-] FundMECFSResearch 8 points 1 month ago

Good post, bookmarked. A lot of fediverse people who react almost reactionary against bluesky are well meaning, but don’t really understand how it works. This is good content, thanks.

[-] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 7 points 1 month ago

What about private messages between users?

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 month ago

That is horribly centralised, but its not (imo) an essential part of the network.
They do intent to fix it at some point.

[-] suswrkr@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 month ago

maybe open technically. but my impression of BlueSky is that it is full of neoliberal status quo apologists. would be happy to be wrong.

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[-] Ludrol@szmer.info 6 points 1 month ago

As I understand (I could be wrong) bridgy is not useful as it could be as it got bullied into being opt-in instead of opt-out.

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[-] BakedCatboy@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 month ago

Is there any way to connect the bsky android app to the atproto.africa relay or a third party appview that uses the atproto.africa relay? I wouldn't mind using bsky more if there was a clone of the android app that doesn't use the bsky relay/appview. Looking at whtwnd it appears to be just web and not native apps?

I would like to host my own PDS and access bsky through a native app using third party relay+appview, but I haven't seen a way to do this yet.

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this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2025
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