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As an American who grew up at a religious school in the 90s, we absolutely did not (or at least I never had access to one). Obviously places like Kora or Tibet have been effected in their history (I still want to read your answers 😁), but what about, for example, New Zealand? Or Sierra Leonne? Or Portugal? I'm just curious to see how pervasive the new Global Language already is by this point.

BonusQuestion: Is it mostly following their Belt-and-Road Initiative? Wouldn't that be something?

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[-] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 29 points 5 days ago

... how pervasive the new Global Language already is ...

I'm going to challenge you on this point. First of all, what's Chinese? I'm guessing you refer to Putonghua aka Mandarin, the erstwhile variant of Beijingnese prescribed for official use within the PRC by their political leadership.

And second, how "global" is it? It's useful primarily in one contiguous area of the world. Even there a large chunk of people kind of learn it as a first semi-foreign language because they speak something different at home. Cantonese, Shanghainese, or a language that cannot be written in Chinese characters.

Which brings me to my third point: a language that requires study of a script this idiosyncratic will not rise to a global language. Vietnam has gotten rid of hanzi, Korean pretty much as well. Ironically, the north has already completely abandoned it. By comparison, the Latin alphabet was spread by cavalry and cannon boat into all parts of the world for centuries. It spread so far that it is now used to teach pinyin to PRC schoolchildren. And while it is not without its own problems, the simplicity and adaptability of this phonetic alphabet to any language makes it far more useful than Chinese characters. And I'm not shitting on the cultural value of them: that's unimpeachable. It's just too complicated.

The alphabet spread with English, Spanish, French, and Portuguese all over the world. I'm not saying that's a good thing but it's already happened. Mandarin cannot have a similar success today unless the PRC starts colonizing at gunpoint fast.

Most Chinese as a foreign language speakers outside the PRC learned it for economic reasons. Economic ties have become somewhat dicey. If anything I suspect interest in learning Mandarin to wane.

There is also the tonal aspect. Any atonal-native language learner is going to have a much harder time than trying to remember the non-sensical English orthography.

More people on this planet learn English as their first and possibly only foreign language - if they learn one at all. The forum you asked this question on is in English. The internet cements the use of the alphabet.

I'm in Japan where foreign language education is notoriously sub-par overall. English is the first foreign language. Some private high schools offer Mandarin as an optional, I haven't seen anything substantial in state-run schools. At college level, most people chose between French and German as a second foreign language. Like we're still in the Meiji Era. I'm a big proponent that they abandon this tradition in favor of Russian, Korean, and Mandarin. It always helps to learn the language of your neighbors. Language schools advertize k-pop-trendy Korean more.

[-] BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world 8 points 5 days ago

You're grilling OP on something they already said they have little experience with. OP is asking questions to learn, and the grilling is detrimental to that.

[-] FriendOfDeSoto@startrek.website 18 points 5 days ago

I'm criticizing the use of the phrase "new global language." And I've laid out my reasons why I think that's wrong. I didn't think I was grilling OP, just the perception of Mandarin being the new global language. So I'm a little taken aback that you read it that way; that wasn't my intention.

[-] lividweasel@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago

I mean, when you addressed what is frankly a minor, tangential part of the OP with an essay, it does come across as heavy-handed, even if that isn’t what you meant by it

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

frankly a minor, tangential part of the OP

No, it wasn't

with an essay

Hyperbole

it does come across as heavy-handed

What does that even mean?
"I took your question seriously and attempt a serious answer" == "heavy-handed"?
"I don't agree with all your points" == "heavy-handed"?
Seriously, what does "heavy-handed" even mean here? It seems to imply aggression?

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

As OP, I have no problem with your critiques. And I wasn't saying I think it will be like that at any point during OUR lifetimes. Like the post said, I was just curious because in my childhood (30 years ago), I knew more about the solar system than I did about China Β―\_(ツ)_/Β―

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 2 points 4 days ago

"challenge" (with an informative explanation) == "grill"

Thanks for clarifying which sort of internet user you are.

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[-] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 5 points 4 days ago

First of all, what's Chinese?

It is the mistake that the AI made that generated this manipulative troll post.

[-] GeneralEmergency@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

I'm surprised to see how many people are treating this post seriously.

It is super AI pilled.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm no AI troll, I was just high when I made it πŸ€ͺ

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Whoa whoa whoa, I'm no AI troll, I was just high when I made it πŸ€ͺ

[-] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 1 points 3 days ago

So their was neither any artificial nor natural... πŸ™ƒ

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

I mean, it felt pretty natural to me. None of that synthetic THC-A nonsense. I'm willing to admit it wasn't my most intelligent moment though 🀣

Chinese will never be the official global language and I'll give you 8,105 simplified reasons why...

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago
[-] QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

It's a joke about their writing system

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

I kinda figured, but I also wanted to see if they had a follow-up prepared πŸ˜‚

[-] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 4 days ago

Chinese is not a global language. And it's not likely to be in the future. It's not the raw number of speakers what makes a global language but the number of non-native speakers.

That being said.

In my country, Spain, it is not taught at any level as mandatory, and not even as an option. Of you want to study chinese you have to go to do as an extracurricular thing.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Yeah, my main lesson I've learned here is to type the draft while high, but only press Send after I've come down πŸ˜… I don't think it is now or will be in our lifetimes, BUT I do think that if a universal human language were possible, it would be more beneficial to base it on a Tonal system than an Atonal one (sorry Esperanto). But that is just my opinion, feel free to disagree, and thank you for your input 😁

[-] Siegfried@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

But why would a tonal system be beneficial?

Beneficial... beneficial... am I answering to an AI?

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

Idk that's just, like, my opinion, man... But I think it opens up lots of possibilities for humanity long-term. But yeah no, I'm not AI, just awkward and forward

[-] Ardyssian@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago

Singapore - Mother Tongue is a compulsory subject to take up until Uni. Being classified as Chinese racially, I had to take Mandarin during my formative years - but I'm still not good at it lol

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

I feel you, I still feel like I barely know how to speak English πŸ™ƒ

[-] Onomatopoeia@lemmy.cafe 12 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Umm, gonna answer as an American, for clarity: many schools across the US have language classes of all sorts. Every niece/nephew I know across multiple states could study French, Spanish, Latin, Chinese, Italian, etc, etc. Chinese is one of many (typically Mandarin).

It's very common in US public schools, and has increased significantly over the last 50 years.

Chinese wasn't available in my school decades ago, but was in nearby schools.

[-] awesomesauce309@midwest.social 5 points 5 days ago

We only had Spanish for 8th grade and up. When I was in 7th they had high school French but cut it for budget before I got there.

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 2 points 4 days ago

What about Russian? Serious question; around here it was a relatively popular choice (we share a border with Russia) one or two decades ago, but I suspect this might have changed recently.

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[-] kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

yes, in France, in business schools, they definitely teach Chinese, as a choice, not mandatory.

I believe it is also possible to take Chinese classes during high school , again as a "3rd language option", after English and /Spanish / German

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

Follow-up question: business schools? As in, specialization before high school graduation? I know there are a handful of 'premier' schools here in the states but most of them are expensive, exclusionary, and focused on simply getting INTO a better university (prep schools). Most of us just go through general public education which can vary wildly and you definitely do not (in most cases) get to choose between the "business" branch or the "engineering" branch

[-] kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

No, you are confusing "prep class", which prepare to engineer/business school/university, with business school itself.

Business school is like a University , but private and expensive. It's higher education (Master degree)

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

Ahhh I get it now. Thank you for clarifying πŸ™‚

[-] markovs_gun@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

My high school in a semi rural part of the Southern US had a Chinese language class that you could choose to take for your foreign language credit back in the early 2010s. I think it's a false premise to say that it's not taught in the US, most kids just choose to take easier languages like German, French, or Spanish

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

I definitely should've worded the post better but yeah I didn't mean to imply that it's never taught in the states. Just that my personal experience in the system (also southern but urban) didn't really give me any chances πŸ˜• But honestly a large reason for that probably just came from my particular setting (I'm NOT typing that whole thing out again but in one of my reply threads I go into more detail on the weird things I grew up learning)

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 7 points 4 days ago

It's a good question and I'm not dismissing you! But

As an American who grew up at a religious school in the 90s, we absolutely did not

that in itself is such an American thing to say. First the unspoken assumption that everybody understands what you mean by "religious". And if I looked around here where I live I'm sure I could find a christian (which btw does not mean the same as in the US) school that teaches chinese. And probably even the leaders of such schools have never considered to separate languages into "christian" and "non-christian".

The second half of your question seems a bit paranoid. Are you implying that every Chinese language class is secretly funded by the PRC? Are you afraid that your country might switch to Chinese at some point? Do you have a problem with English not being the No. 1 langauage, globally? I'm no friend of China's political system, but this seems excessive.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

Valid points, I appreciate that πŸ™ Most of your question can be answered by the fact that I was high when I wrote the post and am just tired of using my filter in real life and I feel safe here on Lemmy.

And honestly, my specific Elementary school was very... unique. Looked them up a few months ago and they're a few degrees of separation from Reformed Calvinists. Like, more than half of the faculty come from 2 small Evangelical universities in the middle of the Great Plains. They taught some usual stuff like math and spelling, but then there was also lots of time dedicated to studying the Bible, learned two different songs to memorize the order of the books, we had a "Bring your Priest to School Day," yeah it was just a liiiiiiitle off.

I see your point in my (unintentional) divide into "christian/religios vs chinese" and nowadays I would never try to imply anything resembling that. Now that you mention it though, I do remember one day in 1st(?) grade where they had all the students come and listen to a sermon by a guest preacher (this was fairly common) and somehow the topic of 'Chinese water torture' came up? (I don't remember anything more specific than that, I was very young, but I think a connection was made that shouldn't have been)

As for the paranoia (besides the above annecdote), that was also unintentional. I wish I understood more about ~~non-American~~ culture and as an avid lover of history, I know a lot of times influence is not merely who won which battle and was curious to see if anyone else had more tangible examples than just theories or video game-logic.

Overall, the whole point of this was just to talk to somebody so thank you for that πŸ₯°

[-] A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Damn, I like your reply.

Most of your question can be answered by the fact that I was high when I wrote the post and am just tired of using my filter in real life and I feel safe here on Lemmy.

And that's valid; but it might reveal things about your sub/halfconscious that other people will point out to you, and will mistake for conviction. But if you're OK with that...

And thanks for yet another insight into the certainly not boring but terrifying world of the US education "system".

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Damn, I like your reply

Gee, thanks buddy 😁 As for the subconsciousness peeking through and being taken as conviction... yeah, there are pris and cons to either method. Overall though, to me, life is too short to worry about it too much. I hope you have a fantastic rest of your week πŸ™‚

[-] QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Yes my public high school had it as a language back in the late 1980s/early 90s. This would be New Jersey, USA.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Fair enough. Also thanks for not being one of the comments saying 'they definitely exist in America how dare you' πŸ™„ I could've worded it better but the goal of the post was to find edicational systems different than the one I personally went through, not to try to define all of America's system in a few sentences. I put a fairly detailed description of that in one of my other replies if you're curious but regardless, thanks for your time πŸ™‚

[-] QuoVadisHomines@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

My town was one of the wealthier in the USA at the time and had a substantial population of immigrants from Korea/Japan/Taiwan so it made sense as a third language offering for the kids who were going back to Asia.

A ton of American kids took it because their parents were in finance and pushed it.

edit: It wasn’t commonly offered in NJ schools in that time. That might have changed in the decades since I graduated

[-] eatham@aussie.zone 5 points 4 days ago

In Australia, my high school offers German and Chinese mandatory in y7-8 but optional afterwards.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

Not gonna lie, I can understand the Mandarin since you are geographically neighborly, but the German is surprising. Was that just your high school?

[-] eatham@aussie.zone 2 points 4 days ago

Most high schools offer French and Japanese iirc.

[-] Ziggurat@jlai.lu 5 points 4 days ago

The French education system require to study two foreign language among a long list, so why most people take English + German/Spanish/Italian some people take rare language like Chinese.

To my understanding rare and hard language like Chinese (or Russian) are also a way to be admitted to a better school/class than your local school, so it's often used by rich kids who want to bypass their local public school and be affected to a good school/class

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Danke schΓΆn. This was basically the 'format' of answers I was expecting. I believe some language options existed earlier than this for my situation, but it was never a requirement until high school, and even then, a lot of students (around me/from my perspective) didn't care about it all that much

[-] weew@lemmy.ca 5 points 4 days ago

High school requires at least a second language class to graduate, I believe. Most people take French as it's the "default" one that all schools offer, but my school also had Spanish, Mandarin, and Japanese, iirc. But that was decades ago.

[-] Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org 5 points 4 days ago

the new Global Language

This is not decided yet.

Russian is still a candidate. English still a possibility despite one large English-speaking country giving up all it's meaning.

[-] klu9@piefed.social 4 points 5 days ago

My school (UK, 1980s) offered Mandarin as an extracurricular course. I signed up, showed up... and was the only student. One-on-one classes the rest of the year :)

(Just don't try grilling me in Mandarin now, though.)

[-] konalt@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago

Ireland. I doubt any schools offer it as a curricular, but it is an exam subject. Generally the only people sitting the exam are Chinese native speakers who moved here.

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 1 points 4 days ago

Fair enough. Thanks for the input buddy 😁

[-] Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

There was a show on Nick Jr that taught me how to count to three in Chinese while my kids had snack time.

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