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submitted 1 year ago by tree@lemmy.zip to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


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[-] Hyperreality@kbin.social 113 points 1 year ago

For those who don't get this, 'Laïcité' is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.

Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.

Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 57 points 1 year ago

In Quebec we usually have to explain the difference between secularism and laïcité by mentioning that secularism is the separation of church and State by accommodating all religions equally while laïcité is the separation of church and State by excluding religion from the public domain. Quebec's take on laïcité is more relaxed than France's.

[-] SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago

I think what’s so annoying about these laws is that they go à contresens, by strengthening religion in civic life. These girls are now forced to go to religious schools if they want to continue wearing their harmless cultural dress. In fact, religious schools have exploded in population since the laws on laïcité have passed in France. Many of those girls would have otherwise integrated into French society and become bored of religion, just like Catholic children do, if they went to a normal school. I remember listening to a French philosopher on a debate program say “Seuls les pays qui ont interdit le port du voile ont fini par l'imposer”. I don’t know if that’s literally true, but I think banning makes many muslims feel defiant and more passionate about their religious identity.

It’s especially galling in Canada, which has one of the most well-integrated and moderate Muslim minority populations in the world. A law like this is actively harmful to the goal of lessening “la pertinence de la religion dans la vie civile”. It goes against its own goals, to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.

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[-] Floufym@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

To be fair, it is more correct to say « France is a racist country hiding behind laïcité and feminism to justify their Islamophobia. »

[-] sudneo@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

All other religious symbols are also banned (in schools), so this argument seems pretty weak. One can agree or disagree, but considering religion a private matter that should stay out of the public buildings is a perfectly legitimate stance, in my opinion.

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[-] electrogamerman@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Its funny that Islamists use the term "Islamophobia" considering they teach an homophobic culture themselves. Dont ask for tolerance if you are not willing to be tolerant yourself.

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[-] Wahots@pawb.social 91 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”

I agree with it, not in the "hah, we are dunking on minorities" way, but just because I'm personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we've seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called "religious rights" despite being a secular country. While France's version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.

If it wasn't religion, I'm positive it would be something else. But I think it's very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.

[-] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 31 points 1 year ago

France is fairly blunt in most ways.

When you come to live in France, you are french. If you don't consider yourself french, you are just a tourist.

This is my interpretation of the attitude my French friends have.

[-] ExLisper@linux.community 16 points 1 year ago

When you come to live in France, you are french.

I don't think that's how most of the immigrants feel.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 66 points 1 year ago

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn't know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.

I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don't approve. But I don't want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.

[-] m0darn@lemmy.ca 43 points 1 year ago

An Abaya is just a flowing robe.

This ban is like an American school saying you're allowed to wear cowboy hats but not sombreros because sombreros are associated with catholicism, in that they are mostly associated with the culture of a predominately catholic country.

This is like banning kids from wearing rainbows because it signifies their values.

[-] books@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Then what's the big deal? No hats.

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[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 41 points 1 year ago

In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave "properly" and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 36 points 1 year ago

These kids aren't being taken from their families. They aren't being forced to give up their religion in their homes. These are not the same. This isn't about "other religious groups." It's all religions while at school, and I'm fine with that.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 19 points 1 year ago

The goal is to replace religion with nationalism, which isn't an admirable goal. They may not literally say it out loud, but it's pretty obvious.

[-] u_tamtam@programming.dev 26 points 1 year ago

The goal is to replace religion with nationalism

It really isn't, though?

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 1 year ago

I'm not in support of nationalism. I don't know if what you said is accurate or not. I simply approve of keeping religion out of schools.

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[-] Schlemmy@lemmy.ml 63 points 1 year ago

Yes, let's exempt them from proper education. That'll solve the problem.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 16 points 1 year ago

They aren't exempt from education, school is mandatory in France. It's their parents who will get into trouble.

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[-] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 50 points 1 year ago

People should be allowed to wear what they want. That said, nobody should voluntarily wear these terrible symbols of sexism and oppression. The literal religious purpose of the abaya and even the hijab is to promote modesty, with the rationale that men can't control themselves and it's women's responsibility to do that for them. Fuck that message and fuck the ideology that it perpetuates.

[-] electrogamerman@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

This is exactly the problem. If men had to cover their bodies, I wouldnt mind it, but because only women have to cover their bodies, it is sexist.

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[-] Armen12@lemm.ee 39 points 1 year ago

I don't want religion in schools, outside that, you're still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right

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[-] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml 38 points 1 year ago

New criminal offense: Learning while Muslim.

[-] qyron@sopuli.xyz 27 points 1 year ago

Only that is not.

Crucifixes and other outter religious symbols are facing the same restriction.

For what reason a particular creed holds such tight restrictions on what garments are considered adequate over others evades.

This is a quite harsh way to impose a rule but it is a fair one. No one is being denied education. This is "keep your beliefs to yourself and do not impose it onto others".

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 13 points 1 year ago

the Abaya is just a long wide cut dress. They are banning girls from wearing long dresses, because these are popular with muslims. If the girls decide to wear hoodies now to be conservative about what they show of their body it would need to be banned by that logic too. Basically anything that is not skin tight hot pants and crop tops should be banned because it might be worn by muslim girls to adhere to their religious values.

This ruling has nothing to do with actual secular values. It is just to discriminate against muslim children.

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[-] Anonbal185@aussie.zone 29 points 1 year ago

It's France they're very xenophobic. Just look at how they treat the Corsicans, Brentons, Basques and Catalans.

Night and day to even a few hundred metres across the road in Spain or Andorra.

[-] echodot@feddit.uk 24 points 1 year ago

I'm not saying France isn't racist because they absolutely are but this doesn't seem like that this seems like applying the same rules to everyone equally.

Just going by the article.

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[-] cyclohexane@lemmy.ml 28 points 1 year ago

As someone who comes from Muslim upbringing, I am 100% against face veils and abayas. But this is very clearly racist. Those girls are the victims, so why punish them even further? France is such a fascist place.

[-] luk3th3dud3@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago

Clearly not racist. Same rules for everyone.

[-] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

Weird how in practice this seems to only affect one group of people. Weird how all the bigots seem love this. But this couldn't be the reason for this, could it? Who would ever try to exploit the widespread Islamophobia in France to gain popularity and distract from real problems?

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[-] electrogamerman@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

France is such a fascist place.

As opposed to muslims?

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[-] set_secret@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

can you be racist if it's targeting a religion? honest question. I mean you can be any race and musilm. is it religious discrimination? maybe, but they ban religious garbs for all other religions too, ironically from my understanding, the whole point of it is to level the education playing field so religion isn't discriminated against during the Education process.

I guess you could argue some religious garb is heavily tied to cultural identity and that's probably a fair argument that it disproportionately affects some more than others. Poples right to express their culture shouldn't be infringed upon by the state, the policy is definitely messy, but i don't think it's racist.

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[-] sudneo@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

As you can read in the article, most simply agreed to wear something else. For those who refused, some talks with families will follow. To me it seems a fairly rational way to enforce the rule.

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[-] Vree@feddit.de 27 points 1 year ago

Those girls get pressured by their family and then pressured again in school/work. They have to wear it but also mustn’t…

[-] Etterra@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

How much of human stupidity can be boiled down to "I don't like you wearing a silly hat," I wonder.

[-] MEtrINeS@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 1 year ago

Good! The rules are for everybody. Freedom from religion!

[-] Gsus4@feddit.nl 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

After looking at what an abaya is and understanding some of the overt and covert reasons for doing this and the reaction, the cool solution would be if abayas (they're really just a loose dress) started to be marketed at everyone, so that anyone could wear them and end this stupid debacle. What do people wear in the west if they don't want people to look at their "curves" anyway? Huge market gap, right there. Or maybe instead of abayas they'll start wearing long trench coats to school, lol.

PS: meanwhile, in SA: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-socialmedia-idUSKCN1NL2A1

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this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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