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Episode Discussion | Doctor Who | 2x07 "Wish World" (startrek.website)
submitted 1 week ago by ValueSubtracted@startrek.website to c/doctorwho@startrek.website
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LoglineTraps are sprung and old enemies unite as the Doctor and Belinda finally arrive home to find a very different world. Can the Doctor see the truth before midnight arrives?

Written by: Russell T Davies

Directed by: Alex Sanjiv Pillai

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[-] SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 5 points 1 week ago

I enjoyed this, but I'm not really sure what to make of it yet, I guess I'll have to wait for the conclusion next episode.

Conrad's vision of an ideal world is deranged, of course. Absolute centre of the universe misogynist, ableist, and dictator (though I guess not overtly racist, so I guess it could have been worse?). Not sure why he wished for giant skeleton monsters, maybe he just thinks they look cool.

Looking for cracks, not hiding your doubts, and questioning the world around you is a good message to take away. Though this goes both ways - you can point out the injustice in the world, but unless you have a strong positive framework around which to have a good faith discussion, those who believe the opposite can do the exact same thing. A Conrad type can and will speak up about how it's weird that women have a voice and independence of their own, and they'll see that as an aberration. The metaphor of mugs slipping through a table makes no sense to me, but I understood it from context.

Lots of cameos popped up here, I hope they end up doing something useful and weren't just there for fanservice.

The Rani did go a bit villainsplainy towards the end, but the writers did catch that covering with the need to kickstart the doctor's memory, so well done there.

Looking forward to next week.

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 4 points 1 week ago

though I guess not overtly racist

I was shocked, too.

Not sure why he wished for giant skeleton monsters

I was wondering about that - since they're only sort-of "there," I wonder if they're a creation of the Rani's. In "Unleashed" they talked about how the bones of the bone palace are largely based on birds...they played it off as simply being designed that way because they look cool, but...is there some significance?

Another thing about Conrad: they did an interesting job portraying him as a victim in his own right, with Mrs. Flood still serving as his jailor, and, sort of creepily, as a mother figure.

[-] SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 4 points 1 week ago

The skeleton walkers did initially give me vibes of the cybermen ghosts of 10's run. They're not quite there, but everyone can see and acknowledge them, and they seem to be bleeding in from another reality.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 3 points 1 week ago

I'm not sure what I just watched, but it was a pretty amazing bridge from the ISC into the season finale.

I thought there was going to be more of a payoff to the surname Zufall ("coincidence"), which seems to contradict the wish granting thing we got. And at this stage, the Rani doesn't seem particularly scientific, but more like a magician transforming people into ~~newts~~ anything except newts.

The bone beasts were an impressive visual, but I'm not sure what purpose they served other than spectacle? Maybe that's something to solve next Saturday. If not, they seem to be so superfluous the show went to great lengths to show us they literally didn't even leave footprints.

I was not sold on Rogue's love letter from hell, he could have been kept on ice for a later season. Maybe I'm just more sparing with declarations of love, but it seemed a little overblown considering their brief history? Looks like Susan got thrown into the same scene in post, and I think she would have made a weightier messenger.

However, along with all the other barbs about men absolutely not loving other men, and the "girl>wife>mother" sequence of a woman's life, it adds another creepy shade of beige to Conrad's ideal world. I had a good chuckle that all of that is intended to fail in the Rani's larger scheme. Fuck off Conrad, have another pink fat sandwich for the road.

So this episode's deity is just randomly born of humans, and anyway just lies giggling in a cot to feed Conrad's delusion? That was underwhelming, but okay. On to the next theme.

The undercurrent that questioning dominant narratives can crack their grasp on reality is more powerful and relevant than it felt at a first viewing. Where there's doubt there's hope. Especially when the narrator (literally doing a Cee Beebies storytime) is a fascistoid influencer who could have been drag'n'dropped from youtube or tiktok.

And it's of course very RTD to place one of the perspectives through cracks in (normative) reality with the marginalised dispossessed — besides the disabled in the camp I'm pretty sure I spied at least one person in drag. What is the line, "it's easier to see things from the outside"? Glad Ruby found her tribe, and some purpose for her "73 yards" trials.

The bone palace was an amazing set, and the "doubt precogs" (I forget what they were called) clashed nicely with their steampunk Borg design. Why do their elongated tar pit hands remind me of Micky the idiot getting eaten by a bin?

The little things set up for next time:

  • What's up with Poppy? Like an inverse Pinocchio, she was a real child all along, and that's somehow important?
  • Were the Doctor and the Rani lovers once, or something else? That's new, I'm interested how it'll play out, though it feels like saddling the Doctor with a nuclear family, a male heartthrob, and a distant female ex is a bit much for one episode?
  • Considering Mel's bin was full of doubtful former mugs, I'm guessing she has more of a role to play with the dispossessed than we saw here.

That big reveal: Omega. Really? I thought he was an empty suit of armour in a black hole. Guess not 🤷

Sutekh had a bunch of story potential that wasn't cashed in on in last season finale. Maybe this will be the opposite, but right now I couldn't care less about Omega. There are so many other fish to fry in this story, and he's just leftovers from ~~30~~ 50 years ago.

This may sound overly negative, but as a whole I actually enjoyed the episode a lot. The middle third is never going to be as impressive as the start or end, but "Wish world" kept the mystery going and raised the stakes a good deal in the process.

Can't wait until the final episode.

[Edit: forgot just how long ago "The three Doctors" was]

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 3 points 1 week ago

I thought there was going to be more of a payoff to the surname Zufall (“coincidence”), which seems to contradict the wish granting thing we got.

Oh, interesting - I didn't realize that was the translation. I guess that ties in to "The Church on Ruby Road" and how luck and coincidences can affect reality, in this case leading to Desidirum. A bit of a deep cut that I barely remembered.

The bone beasts were an impressive visual, but I’m not sure what purpose they served other than spectacle?

That's sort of my issue with episodes of this nature in general - we know it's not real, it will (probably) be undone by the end of the season, so a lot of it is just there to be weird.

I was not sold on Rogue’s love letter from hell

Me neither, though I was not as high on "Rogue" as many people were last year. Hopefully it's leading to a more significant return soon, and doesn't fizzle out like the Captain Jack cameo during the Chibnall run, though I'm sure that one imploded for very different reasons.

Fuck off Conrad, have another pink fat sandwich for the road.

I really did enjoy the ways in which Conrad's shitty worldview infested this world. I'm sure the Rani was all too happy to let that happen, fostering doubts in those whose lives were less than ideal.

The undercurrent that questioning dominant narratives can crack their grasp on reality is more powerful and relevant than it felt at a first viewing.

Agreed - this is one of those episodes that throws some really compelling ideas out there, without really slowing down to examine them.

And it’s of course very RTD to place one of the perspectives through cracks in (normative) reality with the marginalised dispossessed

The line about Ruby walking past their encampment every day and ignoring it was...not subtle (and that's a good thing - I'm over subtlety).

Omega

Another classic thing that I'm aware of, but will have to do some homework on.

On the whole, I'm with you. It was a decent episode, I was entertained, but by its nature it's mostly an exercise in table-setting for the big finale.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 3 points 1 week ago

Catching up on Omega is as easy as Rani homework was. His broadcast appearances are pretty scarce.

It's "The three Doctors" and "Arc of infinity" — and again the second one really does feel like homework — plus "Remembrance of the Daleks" for additional credit, even though it's only the Hand of Omega that appears there.

But you sort of owe yourself any chance to watch Sylvester McCoy dropping clues to the Cartmel plan, so do take "Remembrance" if you can!

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 1 points 1 week ago

Let's see, "Arc of Infinity" and "Remembrance of the Daleks" are both four-parters - I should be able to manage that.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 1 week ago

Yeah, and "The three Doctors" is 100 minutes as part of Tales of the TARDIS. Should be possible in a week or so 👍

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 1 week ago

This episode was a lot, and only the last step toward a conclusion of the season arc(s). I'm going to try and post as I form thoughts about specific themes...

"The church on Ruby Road"

There are definitely elements carried over from this one into the entire show since then. First, the themes of coincidence and luck, and perhaps by extension wishes (and doubt?). It seems like RTD is still grappling with telling them apart, like with the unfortunate Zufall family who nominally belonged in one category, but were played according to one or several others.

There was nothing Zufällig about the Rani finding the seventh son of a seventh son of a seventh son. That's a traceable anomaly, a standout pattern that portends the specialness of the child. More than an omen, an identical lineage might be engineered to similar effects — in which case we are uncomfortably close to the magical thinking of eugenics.

Our showrunner would make a poor practical magician if he can't separate happenstance from wishes that have more intent behind them, a "gamification" perhaps of randomness, or the methodical identification of patterns in (apparent) coincidence. However, he did also introduce the "technology of rope" in "TcoRR". That's a fairly scientific approach that requires a deeper understanding of a field's taxonomies and the patterns inherent in them.

We might expect that stringency of method from the Rani, and so far it has been suggested as much in behind the scenes interviews. We will have to wait and see if her scientific applications of coincidence shows on screen. I think only then do we have a proper synthesis of science fantasy in the show.

So those are two components from the first christmas special that have set the course for the following seasons. Superstition, and its scuentific formalisation. The third, most glaring one is — all the babies. I don't think we've ever had so many orphans, foundlings, kidnappings, and (space) baby factories in the span of two seasons before... and then there is the baby elephant in the room, the Timeless Child.

Right now, Doctor Who has more unknown parents in play than in your average soap opera. I'm not even going to speculate which are going to be tied up, or how. At best, it's going to be a pattern we won't recognise until it's shown to us.

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 2 points 1 week ago

More than an omen, an identical lineage might be engineered to similar effects — in which case we are uncomfortably close to the magical thinking of eugenics.

I would guess that it wouldn't work, though - the laws of magic would probably insist on it being genuine happenstance.

I unfortunately don't think we'll see the Rani applying the actual scientific method to what she's doing - her experimentation seems to be done, and she's moved on to application.

I think she's retained her sense of purpose, though, which sets her apart from the more chaotic Master.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 1 week ago

Yeah, her long term purpose certainly was spelled out in the recent teaser trailer!

[-] Stormygeddon@startrek.website 3 points 1 week ago

It's a little weird after so many years to see the Doctor specifically called "Doctor Who" as a name for multiple sentences.

[-] askryan@startrek.website 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

BILL: Sorry, what do you mean, it's his real name? Nobody knows the Doctor's real name.

MISSY: I do, because I grew up with him, and his real name is Doctor Who.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 5 days ago

Missy living her best, ridiculously chaotic life 😄

[-] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 2 points 1 week ago

The book must be about Peter Cushing.

[-] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 1 week ago

I thought so too. At least they realised that nobody in the younger segment would get the joke if they called him "Doctor OHO".

this post was submitted on 24 May 2025
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