Discord fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it, anti-libre software.
Well my laptop is facist hyprland and I am writing on tankie Lemmy.
And don't give a f*ck about it. Because it's open source. And devs can do whatever they want, the same as users can do what they want.
If someone is unhappy with the devs, fork it and do your own stuff with it. Nobody cares.
Don't say nobody cares. I care. Fuck fascists.
You call man a bigot and you make a drama publicly because you can't stand how he can have a different opinion or way of living than you, right? Guess that makes you... a bigot? 😉
I made myself a promise to donate to Hyprland and Vaxry every time I see bad press against him. And I just made another payment. He makes good software and this is something he should concentrate on and just like many others on this thread: I don't care if he has one opinion or the other. You don't like it? Just don't engage with him, his Discord or Hyprland, let the guy have his space.
Or make another bad press and make me donate again, I'll happily do that💪🏻
You also donate to the KKK? How's your investment in anti-trans communities going so far, what's the ROI? Happy with all the hatred you are fueling?
If you honestly throw KKK and Vaxry into the same bucket then I guess it speaks for yourself: as for me, I'm not going deeper into conversation if this is how it starts ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I didn't do it. He did that himself, he [pretty much, in other words] said:
"I'm fine with a genocidal transphobe homophobe racist antisemite literal murderer being welcomed of my software community if he was alive now. As long as he keeps his crimes against humanity off the main focus: my project and my project alone."
Im looking forward to the full release of cosmic as I dont want to keep using hyprland. Sadly theming is incomplete and it'll be a while before good themes get released.
The main reason why I use open source is precisely because I don't need or want to worry about this crap. The software is as much property of humanity as it is of the creator, it is basically just knowledge
Absolutely this. Too many people think that because you use some open source software from some fascist dev that "obviously you're fascist, too".
Bigotry: obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Hating on Hyprland users that know what's going on but still really like the software fits this definition. Plus, isn't the biggest kick in the face having the exact people you hate use and enjoy your software?
This is exactly why I switched from PolyMC to Prism Launcher. The PolyMC dev was a fascist prick and an anti-gay/trans activist. His fear was that PolyMC was "going to get taken over by the gays due to the name having Poly in it (as in polysexual)", so he started banning all the devs who disagreed with him or even made a joke about it.
Those devs forked the project and, to rub salt in the wound, made the icon rainbow. But guess what? Its the same software. They forked it because they still liked it and wanted to use it. The software itself had absolutely nothing to do with the dev.
This! If it is Free Software, it respects everyone's freedom. If I don't like the developer, I will not buy them a coffee. If I don't like the software practices of the developer, a fork is in order (e.g. Oracle with OpenOffice --> LibreOffice)
Honestly I just stopped caring about developer's personalities or political views. If you only use products made by nice guys who share your political views you won't use anything in your life. Not even a phone.
All the VR users that care about this sort of thing better be aware of Oculus' founder Palmer Luckey too. Their friends will be so sad when they stop showing up in VR chat
After reading a lot of the material I am not convinced the hyprland dev can reasonably be called a "fascist".
It's an interesting story, though.
Repeat after me:
"You do not support a project or its dev in any way by just using the software you got for free."
In fact, unless you donate, advertize or contribute to the project, you're a net drain on its resources.
I don't disagree exactly, but I'd argue that you're contributing to the project even if you're just reporting bugs or helping others with it on e.g. Lemmy.
I could see avoiding all of that pragmatically in order to use some obscure, critical software, but not something you use every day and for which there are reasonable alternatives.
I think it’s really funny how in proprietary software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically harmed a business. But in free and open source software, if you download stuff without asking, you’re presumed to have economically benefited the random individual that made the project.
It's because proprietary software actually has value
(jk, I'm one of us)
If you like hyprland, use it. Just dont prompte it. Dont talk about it. Dont even mention it
Why? We like something. We share it. You may ignore it.
Because promoting hyprland is morally wrong? Its pretty simple
My morals come from my religion and not from some arbitrary standards set by a Western supremacist, who thinks their culture is superior to everyone else and the rest of the world is "primitive". Promoting a tool by itself is not morally wrong. It seems like some people have a very low opinion about other people. They think that others will not be able to differentiate between a tool and the morals of its makers. I am sorry that I have a much higher opinion about adults.
Who is the Western supremacist in this scenario and what relationship do they have to morality? Kinda makes or breaks your whole argument
It is not tho
How much wrong does a person have to do for you to consider it morally wrong to promote the things they make?
Why is it wrong to promote the things a shitty person makes?
It's FOSS, so using it doesn't give them money. On the other hand, a user might voluntarily donate if they're unaware.
One might claim they're being given a platform in the community by people promoting their product, but on the other hand I hear more loudly that they're toxic, fascist and banned from various places.
Anything else to add?
I don't have a lot that I would add, but I would just assert that the "user might donate if they're unaware" is a big enough reason on its own. Even if you promote it alongside a caveat mentioning the moral shortcomings, the people who start using it because of your promotion might also promote it, but there's no guarantee they'll keep the caveat (in fact I'd consider it likely that people who will use the product despite the caveat are exceptionally likely to neglect to mention anything in their promotion).
And to your second point I'd say that its pretty indisputable that they are being given a platform, as evidenced by the platform they have. It is a platform that is, as you mention, not subscribed to by a lot of people with a moral backbone, but it is significant.
If I had to give a one-liner for why it is bad to promote the things a shitty person makes, I'd say "its a bit of a Nazi bar thing".
And in addition to that: It's also kind of a big thing that they get an audience. The more people use the projects, the bigger the audience. They'll get a Discord and people will join because of the project, people will start reading their blog because of the attention via the software... People will maintain and package their software, or use it, or contribute to it... Directly resulting in interactions with the group which develops a project. That's a direct consequence of the project getting attention. And "promoting" is a way to draw attention.
Those are both great points, thanks for explaining.
No worries I'm glad we could discuss it in a way that was helpful!
I don't really care, the Lemmy devs also got some funky political opinions but I'm still here
at the end of the day software is software and this stuff is all free and open source anyway
Fr, you can disagree with someone and still make use of the software they create. Especially because you're not even directly supporting them monetarily.
Vaxry is not a very smart guy. He originally got a wrist slap by FDO saying don't do your toxic shit here. Then he followed it up by going postal on the FDO mailing list. Then he put up a blog post where he was like like "SJWs are coming for me".
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-inclusiveActivists
The entire argument is that you can't make an exclusionary space for people (no definition of what that means) but you should be able to call them slurs. Who would want anything to do with him? He should have gone full tilt and made a list of slurs you should be allowed to say beyond just arguing for the R-slur. That would have really convinced people he's not an extremely toxic right wing weirdo.
https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity
This was his non-apology where he says "lets be real" a lot which is a common way of just ignoring a criticism and then he follows it up with, I should have banned that user instead of doing what I did.
Asking for professionalism in the OSS community is not a huge deal. It's also quite literally not even about the code AFAIR Drew Devault is still taking Vaxry's patches. He just doesn't want him in the community starting shit with people.
The "paradox of tolerance" is a concept I love to bring up time and time again.
No tolerance for the intolerant, lest intolerants take over tolerant spaces and turn them intolerant.
I don't care, i care for the tech. I don't need to make friends with the devs of the tech nor give them my money.
They have different political views than me, yes. Does it affect the tech they develop? Not in my opinion.
Fascism is not an opinion.
Fixed that, you are correct.
Still, I don't care if they are gay or straight communist or fascist, black yellow white or gray. Software is a tool and its apolitical.
Fascism isnt a political view either. Conservatism is a political view. It also cant be viewed the same as communism or socialism. One is based on feeding, housing and helping everyone while the other is tied to discriminating, abusing and even killing people of different ethnicity and ability.
Friends don't let friends use the shitty fash compositor <3
It is a quandary.
I would not support the project monetarily because I would not want to fund the primary persons behind it.
But Hyprland is FOSS is it not? Someone could fork the project to resolve the issue you are describing.
If this does not resolve the issue in your opinion (as you seem to have concerns with the "roots" of the project), and if we go with that logic, we should be just as opposed to using the modern "Jerry" gas can as it was a Nazi invention originally.
Both good and evil people invent things - whether the thing that is invented is itself reflective or could be considered supportive of the inventors ideals varies. Nazi's are terrible and I don't want to support them, but at the same time I think that it is good and useful to be able to safely and effectively transport gas if needed, and I'm not so certain that function supports Nazi ideals. If I purchased the gas can from a Nazi, then it would, but nothing is being purchased in the case of Hyprland as far as I am aware.
I don't know a tonne about Hyprland as a thing however, so my decision on whether or not to use it may also vary.
In short, you can have massive, entirely valid criticisms of the evil deeds of a person, but that does not necessarily fault everything they invent or touch, even if we would like it to. This is the crux of the Composition/Division logical fallacy if I am not mistaken, which is where we make an assumption that what is true about part of something must be applied to the rest of it without exception.
In this instance, the inventor may be evil but it does not automatically mean that their inventions are inherently evil.
If there are criticisms of Hyprland, the software itself - then it is a different matter.
Fuck hyprland
All my homies hate hyprland
I thought this was going to be a new article or news, but it's from April 9, 2024.
I think this situation has been picked over and rehashed now to the point where anyone who was going to change their behaviour will have already done so. If there is no update on the situation then all I see is you dragging up drama from a year ago.
Find a better cause than this nothing burger. Literally nothing better to do but complain about some old discussion. God forbid you forgive and move on. No you said something that offended me years ago and I will not forgive such a terrible transgression. This 'look at me" posting is so tiring. Look at how great I am. Don't worry everyone I'll fall on the sword and call out the bad people.
You probably don't care about my opinion, but one of the reason I don't really care about this is that I only have the "drama" second hand from very unreliable sources. There is the Vaxry's version of the story which cannot be trusted because that's conflict of interest. Then there is Drew, who according to a Distrotube video is quite a bizzare person, who really enjoys to stir the drama and write these extremely misleading "hitpieces" on famous FOSS people. The issue is that to me Distrotube is not a credible source regarding this either because he's got for me too schizo view of the world. He has a rifle collection, in case he has to fight for his country. (including a rifle, "that's good for children")
So it's just too foggy for me. Well I don't promote Hyprland because I don't care about my computer's "looks" and because according to some (I think) Void dev, Hyprland code is crap. But that's a different story. Anyways my point is that I can see why people can see it as not that bad.
edit: adding sources for the Drew, Distrotube and Void stuff, in that order. Also the Drew video relies on indirect evidence but for me it's fairly convincing.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=NLHIIVppdMw
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