783
The Design is Very Human (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by dewritochan@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world

having a moment here in gnome

to everyone pointing out that this is for touchpads;

a: it's awful on that too

b: note the mouse in the example given

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[-] incompetentboob@lemmy.world 169 points 2 years ago

This is an affront to nature

Looking at you Apple who has this option on by default.

[-] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 109 points 2 years ago

This is actually pretty nice for touchpad. It's atrocious for scrollwheel though.

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 29 points 2 years ago

And the magic mouse famously doesn't have a scroll wheel.

[-] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago

I use unnatural for both. It feels like inverted mode for FPS for me. I blame GoldenEye

[-] Jsprad@lemmy.world 37 points 2 years ago

That's the first thing I fix when I set up a new Mac. Second thing is install BetterTouchTool. It lets you separate mouse and trackpad options, so the scroll wheel can be right and the trackpad backwards.

This comment is not a paid advertisement.

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[-] PunchyMcStabbington@lemmy.world 33 points 2 years ago

I hate how Apple unifies the mouse scroll and trackpad scroll interpretation, so I really love this project: https://github.com/ther0n/UnnaturalScrollWheels

[-] vector_zero@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago

IIRC it's default in Windows and GNOME now too. It's a very strange default.

[-] incompetentboob@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago

Ok that’s even worse. I get that its to make it the same as when you push the screen up on your phone blah blah blah

But they can all die and burn in hell

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[-] twistedtxb@lemmy.ca 16 points 2 years ago

We use Apple Computers at work and when I go to someone's computer and realize that "natural scrolling" is on I can't help but judge them internally. Monsters.

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[-] savvywolf@pawb.social 110 points 2 years ago

I'd rather have an app with unnecessary options that nobody will ever use than one where some UX expert somewhere has decided the exact way I have to interact with the program.

[-] StarkillerX42@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 years ago

You have been blacklisted from Apple's job board.

[-] uranibaba@lemmy.world 16 points 2 years ago

It is not about the wording, rather the having the option? No one would call that direction natural.

[-] gornius@lemmy.world 30 points 2 years ago

Actually "natural" gets a pass from me. It doesn't feel right just because we got used to the opposite.

Imagine a paper scroll on rolls. If you slide the top of the roll upwards - the paper goes up, and you can see more bottom content. The exact opposite happens when you scroll the mouse wheel with default config.

[-] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 13 points 2 years ago

I’ll preface this by agreeing that it’s just a matter of preference but, to me, natural scrolling on trackpads makes sense because the the trackpad “feels” like the virtual piece of paper you’re moving around. However, the scroll wheel “feels” like some sort of roller separating my finger from the page, kind of like the ones printers use to feed paper. In that case, traditional scrolling is closer to the real-life behavior.

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[-] Araozu@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago

cries of apple fanbois on the distance

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[-] mathemachristian@lemm.ee 91 points 2 years ago

There was a point in time where first person video games couldn't make their minds up and so games came with the option to have the y-axis inverted. Moving the mouse up would make the PC look down and vice versa.

[-] veroxii@aussie.zone 83 points 2 years ago

It's because of joysticks and typical flight controls. Pushing forward goes down and pulling backwards is "pulling up".

Joysticks rules for a long time before the mouse came out. Home computers came standard with joystick ports.

Keyboard controls followed this convention and when mouse controls came into FPS games this was the first instinct... Moving the mouse "forward" looks down.

[-] Bassman1805@lemmy.world 29 points 2 years ago

I hate when games DON'T have the option. In FPS non-inverted makes more sense, but in 3rd person games if I can't invert the camera if just feels unplayable.

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[-] tehmics@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Still a setting in any game worth caring about. I still prefer inverted in some cases.

Something like a mounted turret makes more sense inverted if you think of the mouse as an analog of your hand. Moving the handles down would move the tip of the barrel up. This analogy could easily extend to a two handed rifle or even a hand gun if your mental reference is the back of the gun, the handle

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[-] rich@feddit.uk 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

And as far as I'm concerned, all games should have their fucking y axis inverted as default so I don't have to keep turning it on.

If I have a camera on a tripod and I angle down...the view goes up. If I angle up, the view goes down. That's how it works. Or, I guess, how my mind works at least.

If someone grabbed my (steadily getting overgrown) hair from the back and yank down, my eyesight will move up. And vice versa.

[-] gaylord_fartmaster@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago

So therefore you invert the x axis for the same reasons too, right?

[-] Newusername4oldfart@lemm.ee 14 points 2 years ago

It’s the same with left versus right, which nobody has yet talked about. It you angled my head right, my vision would be turning towards the left. Both of these need to be inverted.

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[-] sznio@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

If I have a camera on a tripod and I angle down...the view goes up. If I angle up, the view goes down.

I much prefer a simpler analogy: If I look up, I look up. If I look down, I look down.

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[-] MyFairJulia@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

I personally invert the axes in third person scenarios because the camera moves around the character and i want to move the camera.

Within first person shooters i don't because i move the camera/head to where i want to look.

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[-] verysoft@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

If you imagine the mouse strapped to the back of your head, then moving it up would tilt your head down, but it would also tilt you head left when you moved it right. So if you want to use realism (in this mouse behind the head scenario) as an argument for inversion then you would need left and right inverted too.

However, if you strap the mouse to your face, now if you move the mouse up, your head tilts up aswell. If you move it right, you look right. And given in 1st person games the camera is at the front of the head, this is why non-inverted is preferred.

The only argument for either is personal preference and more people prefer the latter, non-inverted, which is why it is not the default.

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[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 63 points 2 years ago

I blame macs for this. The mouse should move the viewport, not the content, and touchpads/touchscreens are not mice. Having mice default to moving the viewport and touchscreens/-pads default to moving the content is perfectly natural.

[-] drahardja@lemmy.world 23 points 2 years ago

perfectly natural

Have you talked to anyone who grew up with smartphones and tablets, then transitioned to computers with a pointer? They will strongly disagree with you.

The mental model we have of “scrolling” is largely a product of our earliest experience.

[-] whofearsthenight@lemm.ee 20 points 2 years ago

Gotta be honest as the resident Mac fanboy, it blew my mind that they don't separate this. Natural scroll on trackpads makes sense. Traditional scrolling on mice makes sense. Apparently, if you use a combo mouse/trackpad (like in my case, a laptop with a mouse on the side to prevent RSI) you can only pick one or the other without a third party app.

[-] QuaternionsRock@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

They don’t separate it because scrolling on the goddamned Magic Mouse is more similar to a trackpad. I’m like 99% sure that’s it. I vaguely remember that thing’s introduction being around the same time natural scrolling became the default.

[-] darcy@sh.itjust.works 58 points 2 years ago

they are GASLIGHTING us into thinking reverse way is NORMAL!

[-] callyral@kbin.social 41 points 2 years ago

i only use that for touchpad

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[-] M0oP0o@mander.xyz 32 points 2 years ago

Stop trying to make all PCs phones, its not going to happen. STOP.

[-] Glarrf@midwest.social 24 points 2 years ago

I love the natural direction for my track pad and phone, but I'll die before I use it on my mouse. I have to use a 3rd party app to make my mouse behave the way I want and still use a track pad

[-] isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 20 points 2 years ago

I preferred the term "Australian scrolling"

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[-] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 19 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You only use that on a touchpad

[-] wrinkletip@feddit.nl 18 points 2 years ago

I have natural scrolling on for both mouse and touchpad, I like it much better. It's a pain in Windows though, have to edit register to change wheel direction.

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[-] victron@programming.dev 14 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Most of the time, the linux memes community sparks better debates and discussion than the linux one, where everything is circlejerk and "windows bad"

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[-] BackOnMyBS@lemmy.world 12 points 2 years ago

i dont get it. what's "natural scrolling"?

[-] eager_eagle@lemmy.world 44 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The wrong way. Scrolling moves the content instead of moving the "camera".

Touch screens move the content. Mouse wheels have always moved the observer/camera. They're pushing the touch scrolling style to mouse wheels too.

[-] tdawg@lemmy.world 8 points 2 years ago

It's honestly strange we haven't agreed on a better naming convention like "touch screen scrolling" and "desktop scrolling" to indicate their intended uses

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[-] Confetti_Camouflage@pawb.social 10 points 2 years ago

"Natural scrolling" just reverses the scroll direction. Pushing the mouse wheel up will scroll the content down. It's called "natural" because it's similar to the way you drag content around on touch screens.

[-] Mininux@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 years ago

it's mostly for touchpads, I find it better as it mimics the behaviour on phones touchscreen but sometimes I disable it

I hope nobody uses it on a mouse

[-] Raimu@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago

Apple enters the chat

[-] quindraco@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago

What am I missing? What else would the mouse wheel do?

[-] Tempo@lemmy.world 34 points 2 years ago

"Scrolling moves the content" means the content moves opposite of the direction you scroll a la smartphones and tablets, i.e. scrolling up will make content move down.

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this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2023
783 points (100.0% liked)

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