168
Ah cool the classic "it's cool my imaginary friend said so" excuse.
"Thou shall not kill." Did he fucking stutter?
You are not familiar with Judaism. They aren't allowed to kill Jews. That's what the commandment means to them and has always meant to them. The second of the ten commandments is about loving your neighbor and to Jews that historically means other Jews and therefore the other commandments following it also only apply to other Jews.
But to be fair, Islam has the same issue of discriminating against unbelievers. At the time of Muhammad, only Jews, Christians and Sabians were tolerated. Others had to convert or be killed.
And to be even more fair, there are orthodox branches of Judaism that are pacifist and therefore definitely don't go out to kill. I really admire Yaakov Shapiro, who is fiercely anti-Zionist and pacifist.
Of the three Abrahamic religions, Christianity is the only one that doesn't allow killing of any humans.
Jesus specifically took the commandments and gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaritans were the Palestinians of his time, descendents of non-exiled Israelites and Judeans. The Jews who came back from Babylon didn't recognize them as Jews and discriminated and oppressed them.
So Jesus gave that parable to make it clear that even Samaritans were neighbours, not just Jews.
Of course, later Christianity became the Roman religion and evolved to become the most violent of the three Abrahamic religions, but Christians have always needed to justify their wars as "just wars" in "self-defense" or "to protect the innocent" and Christian leaders are masters in lying and deceit. Even in modern times, Bush needed to lie about WMD to get support for the Iraq war.
So I don't want to say Christians are less violent - history shows the opposite. Only that Christianity is pacifist in its original form.
Nice blood libel you got there.
I'm a Jewish person and I don't see blood libel in this. They provided some interesting points and while I don't fully agree they aren't painting Jews as evil or others as good, just trying to reconcile our beliefs with these recent atrocities.
Truth is an absolute defense for libel accusations. So what about the comment was untrue? Or do you think including the phrase "blood libel" is sufficient to form a though-terminating cliche?
Anyway, looking at it from an anthropological perspective, many societies have regarded themselves as human while characterizing all outsiders as non-human. I wouldn't expect the ancient Jews to differ from anyone else in the region at the time when it comes to this.
Subhuman spotted
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the Lord your God must die. In this way you will purge the evil from Israel.
Deuteronomy 17:12
And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, 13 but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
[T]hat certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
There are more examples. I love hypocrisy dunking, but the hypocrisy is unfortunately baked into the theology.
More examples on the "opposite side":
And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.
Deuteronomy 10:19
How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 82:2-4
Learn to do right; seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
plead the case of the widow.
Isaiah 1:17
Overall, though, I would interpret Abrahamic religions as hostile to outsiders, non-believers, and other religions.
The Abrahamic religions are and have always been internally incoherent. I didn't come here to argue that the Court got their own doctrine wrong, just to provide a citation to their foundational doctrine that illustrates the incoherence. I don't care what their invisible space monkey tells them, but if they want to kill others, they shouldn't be surprised when the others fight back. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
There is a reason the Talmud is basically a collection of massive extensive debates. Our religion isn't necessarily coherent or consistent and it takes a very long time to become a Rabbi for a reason.
Theocracies, who would've thought. If it were Muslims with power fighting for their promised land or whatever and it were occupied by Jews, they'd do the exact same thing. Just like Christians did during the crusades and colonialism, slave trade and so on.
The people who committed the Armenian genocide were secularist nationalists acting during a time of Ottoman weakness.
This is what two Jewish sources one historical and one modern had to say about the Muslim Conquest of the Levant:
In 638 CE the Byzantine Empire lost control of the Levant. The Arab Islamic Empire under Caliph Omar conquered Jerusalem and the lands of Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine and Egypt. As a political system, Islam created radically new conditions for Jewish economic, social, and intellectual development.[132] Caliph Omar permitted the Jews to reestablish their presence in Jerusalem–after a lapse of 500 years.[133] Jewish tradition regards Caliph Omar as a benevolent ruler and the Midrash (Nistarot de-Rav Shimon bar Yoḥai) refers to him as a "friend of Israel".[133]
Above quote is from Wikipedia, here's an article about it: https://www.academia.edu/5768249/Nistarot_Rabbi_Shimon_b_Yohai
And next is a quote from Ben-Gurion himself:
“The fellahin are not descendants of the Arab conquerors, who captured Eretz Israel and Syria in the seventh century CE. The Arab victors did not destroy the agricultural population they found in the country. They expelled only the alien Byzantine rulers, and did not touch the local population. Nor did the Arabs go in for settlement. Even in their former habitations the Arabs did not engage in farming…their whole interest in the new countries was political, religious and material: to rule, to propagate Islam, and to collect taxes…the Jewish farmer, like any other farmer, was not easily torn from his soil…Despite the repression and suffering the rural population remained unchanged.” [7
An interesting post about the indigeneity of Palestinians reviewing a book by Israeli historian Shlomo Sand https://blogs.umb.edu/joinercenter/2012/10/09/review-of-shlomo-sand-the-invention-of-the-jewish-people-london-verso-2009-translated-by-yael-lotan/
The comment I replied to is both-siding genocide. I am keeping it because it gave me a chance to share relevant historical information. Additionally, it is worth mentioning that while the Torah condones genocide (story of Amalek), the Quran doesn't. Of course there has been brutal Muslim leaders and their brutality extended to Muslim religious leaders and scholars, as is typical with any government unfortunately.
I get why conservative and evangelical Christians in the West support Israel, they read the same book more or less. But I don’t get why liberals and progressives do.
Progressive politics has been infiltrated by Zionist lobbyists from the Harry Truman days. Much more so than Republicans.
LBJ was a democrat who accepted the USS Liberty, while Reagan was the one who actually stopped the carnage in Lebanon, calling it a Holocaust.
Believe it or not, but Trump is actually less beholden to Israel than Biden. Trump and Republicans are actually more beholden to Saudi-Arabia, which is why MBS could quite easily get them to stop the Gaza genocide.
As to why, it's mostly due to the Holocaust narrative and the idea that Palestine was empty and Jews needed a homeland.
Younger progressives know better, but this propaganda was immensely effective in the past among liberals and progressives.
Today, it's mostly money and the influence they have in the party through people like Schumer, Blinken, etc.
Look how AIPAC recently primaried Cori Bush, Jamaal Bowman. And a few years ago they also primaried a progressive Jewish (!) congressman who was critical of the apartheid.
I'm highly skeptical Trump is less beholden to Israel than Biden.
Then explain how Trump got the ceasefire deal that Biden couldn't get?
It's quite likely Democrats would have won the election with a ceasefire in place and that's why Biden tried his best to get it before the summer. He used the UN and put pressure on Netanyahu by withholding some weapons, but his AIPAC leash was too tight and Netanyahu and the Republicans humiliated him in front of the world multiple times, so he had to give up.
Trump doesn't give a shit about Palestinians. But he isn't as controlled by AIPAC as Biden was. He has Elon Musk and his own cult. He can tell Netanyahu to eat rocks without losing his power base.
It's unproven, but there are multiple sources claiming that Trump called Netanyahu to not get a ceasefire in place to hurt the Harris campaign. Then once Trump was in office, Netanyahu suddenly cooperated and Trump brokered a ceasefire deal. It's not that crazy to think Netanyahu wanted to punish Biden and Harris and might view Trump as an obvious ally (certainly more likely to enable Israel's genocide than the Democrats would).
Either way, Trump has consistently been pro-Israel, and donors to AIPAC tend to be Republicans and Trump himself is one of those donors. In turn AIPAC funds more GOP candidates in elections than Democrats, even while funding both parties (source).
Trump and the GOP are more enthusiastic supporters of Israel, whether this makes them more beholden I'm not sure, but the idea that Biden is somehow more loyal to Israel seems entirely wrong-headed to me, especially as Biden has been openly critical of Netanyahu and was harsher with Israel than expected, esp. for being a typical pro-Israel conservative Democrat.
Maybe Trump cares less about alienating someone like Netanyahu, but who knows - my impression is that these two are more like natural allies. Maybe that relationship will sour with the influence of Saudi Arabia, but Trump won't be concerned about Palestinian civilians being killed and certainly won't have the same pressure from his base to intercede on behalf of Palestinians. If anything, it's the opposite - Trump has immense pressure from his evangelical base to take pro-Israel positions, and it even extends to his family - his daughter Ivanka and her husband, Jared Kushner, are Orthodox Jews who keep kosher and observe the Shabbat, and guess who Trump put in charge of coming up with a "Middle East peace plan" during his first term? Kushner, who came up with a plan criticized for being lopsided and requiring too few concessions from Israel and too many harsh requirements on the Palestinians. Kushner reportedly has business ties to Israel, and Trump illegally negotiated with foreign officials like the Egyptian president to try to kill a UN resolution demanding an end to Israeli settlements.
Anyway, the examples of Trump's loyalty to Israel are extensive (more so than Biden's), even if you're right that Trump's loyalty could shift due to other influences like Saudi.
Your first point just proves that Trump has control over Netanyahu, while Netanyahu had power over Biden/Harris.
I'm not denying that Trump is pro-Israel and has financial interests.
But where Biden was cucked by Netanyahu, Trump definitely has the upper hand over Netanyahu.
That's what I mean by beholden. Who has the power over who.
Your first point just proves that Trump has control over Netanyahu
Aligned interests are not the same as control.
The ones that do that don't fit into the religious aspect as well, are in it for the money. Just like most politicians, they've sold their souls for the greenbacks.
It’s that sweet aipac money spending hundreds of millions in the last American election.
Did you forget the afhgan, iraq war, gulf war?
evangelical Christians in the West support Israel
The church I grew up in in the '80s and early '90s went on about synagogues of satan and jews killing jesus, so I'm not sure that's exactly true (or, perhaps more accurately, true of the government/inhabitants vs the place).
Fundies supporting Israel as a means to immanentize the eschaton doesn't imply that the same fundies aren't also antisemitic.
They supported some idea of Israel, but not a Jewish state of Israel, for their own ends. Yeah, rural Ohio where I grew up was full of antisemitism and racism (and in many places probably still is)
Bad Empanada is not a serious person.
Samskara you openly hold a zionist viewpoint. Heres a quote from one of your comments:
"Zionists know that the Jewish people need a state to protect their existence. You want the country destroyed that’s home to half the world’s Jewish people. Zionism is necessary because of people like you."
Zionists focus on their "need" but completely discount other peoples needs or rights. And you use it as a justification for crimes. You fail Kant's simple ethic test right off the bat, which is: "what if everyone did that"
The Palestinians and Syrians have even more of claim on the reasoning you put forth than you do-- even if we accept such clumsy justifications as legitimate, which they clearly are not. Its the logic of an angry 3 year old who hasnt learned that we need a system of sharing that we all follow, not simply that the 3 year old gets whatever they want.
why are you using the logic of a 3 year old? Why are you entitled to such a viewpoint where others are not?
People like you only tolerate Jews when they’re a persecuted minority. You can’t stand them taking their destiny into their own hands.
I also support Palestinian rights to self determination in peaceful coexistence. I don’t support settlement of the West Bank.
Cute (and flagrantly dishonest) how when someone criticizes zionism you instantly try to frame it as a stance against all jews.
You can’t stand them taking their destiny into their own hands.
You misrepresent massive war crimes against civilians with ziuonist terrorists "taking their destiny into their own hands."
If you read about the mass murder, terrorism, biological warfare, and theft that occurred in the nakba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
and then you go on to support the state of israel, I dont think you can say you support peaceful coexistence -- because the Nakba -- the foundation of Israel still continues-- it never stopped. Murder, terrorism, biological warfare, and herding 750,000 Palestinian civilians at gunpoint into gaza and the west bank, and now more ethnic cleansing exactly like the last round. Its all one big long war crime. One of the worst I have ever heard of. And its not dusty history, its now. Dont tell me you were in a concentratiuon camp or that you are in any danger today or are being kept in an armed camp starving to death. You're not in that danger and never have been. Nor do I agree that jewish people were in imminent danger broadly and a state was in any way required. It was desired, not required. The justification zionists use is that the land was promised by their religious texts. Its all bloodthirsty criminal nonsense.
And it was taken from actual people, the land Israel sits on wasnt empty. It was stolen.
And stop pretending you are defending jews, you are not. You put them in danger by trying to ascribe zionist terrorism with all jews.
Nakba
900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries after Israel‘s foundation. Most went to Israel.
And it was taken from actual people, the land Israel sits on wasnt empty. It was stolen.
Until Israel‘s war of independence, all land was legally bought.
Israel is a tiny country founded by refugees, who didn’t have anywhere else to go. They had to fight in 1947/48 for their own survival.
Peace was offered many times over but refused by the Arabs every time.
And stop pretending you are defending jews, you are not. You put them in danger by trying to ascribe zionist terrorism with all jews.
Half the world‘s Jews live in Israel. The vast majority of Jews worldwide support the existence of Israel and thus are Zionists.
Nor do I agree that jewish people were in imminent danger broadly and a state was in any way required.
You want Jews to be an oppressed minority in exile from their ancestral homeland.
All Zionists will be eradicated. Better get your affairs in order soon
900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries
thats not what your linked data shows. If you click through it says "migrated or fled". and your citation claimed it said "were expelled".
So once again, you're just flat out lying. Cant you even talk in good faith? Why the constant lies and distortions? This isnt even your first lie in this conversation. How do you expect to be taken seriously if you're trying to pass through cheap transparent BS all the time? At least have the basic self respect to be truthful and not try to pass lies.
in exile from their ancestral homeland.
"ancestral homeland?" wtf. It was not their land. Thats the crux of this isnt it. You dont get to take it at gunpoint (not just their land, but their houses and businesses and all their possessions) because you owned that land 3000 years ago.
Thats not how land ownership works.
Actions have consequences. Those countries didnt expel before Irgun terrorism and zionist terrorism was so active, did they. Its almost like those people didnt embrace zionist terrorism murder and lend theft done in order to create Israel.
Almost like all that brutality had some consequences and created problems for jewish people around the world.
Yes some people seem to have blamed all jews for what the zionists did, which is exactly the crime the zionists are committing again now, but it sure seems like zionists started the battle with them via the stupid nakba and rampant terrorism and now are bellyaching when the exact same things they do was done back to them.
Crybullying, in short.
As demonstrated from this clip. To be clear it wouldn't surprise me if an Israeli judge shoehorned some weird scriptural shit into a decision, but I won't believe this psychotic clowns interpretation of it.
He quotes a tweet and an article. Curiously the article, which would potentially be the only credible source he uses, seems to contradict most of his claims in the very next sentence to the one he highlights. Classic badempanada.
this post was submitted on 17 Apr 2025
168 points (100.0% liked)
Palestine
336 readers
50 users here now
Posts and comments can be in English and العربية
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS