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[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 76 points 1 year ago

Bigotry is intersectional. You know damn well what people are trying to say, and what hateful bullshit they're responding to.

When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument. They're being a racist asshole. Even if the label they use is not a race. If you haven't noticed - racist assholes love tiny excuses to say 'what's so racist about--?!' whatever dehumanizing caricature they just attributed to some associated label. Like "thugs." Or "bankers."

Bankers aren't an ethnicity... but people screaming about "bankers controlling the media" are definitely talking about an ethnicity.

[-] MartinXYZ@sh.itjust.works 24 points 1 year ago

When some redcap uses "Muslim" as a synecdoche for spitting out middle-eastern stereotypes, they're not engaging in comparative religious criticism, or making some grand philosophical argument.

This is true, but when I'm having a discussion about religion and I feel like I'm done criticizing christianity and move on to islam for a bit, people shouldn't say "woah, that sounds a bit racist", and some people still do. I'm very left leaning but I have to say it's mostly people who consider themselves progressive or left leaning, who have trouble separating these things.

[-] eochaid@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Do you often find yourself in "discussions about religion" where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?

Do you also criticize Judaism? Zoroastrianism? Buddhism?

Or is it just those two?

[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

I've never met a Zoroastrian and I'd bet you haven't either.

Buddhism in the experience of any Anglophone is likely to be pleasant metaphysical nothings.

Judaism is more often the target of hatred than its source, and while that balance swings precipitously for Orthodox communities, they're few and far between.

The simple fact of the matter is - Christianity is overwhelmingly what fucks with English-speaking nations 24/7, and Islam only sticks out for some extremely specific events. Do I need an on-record opinion of Mongol animistic faith and Bantu shamanic ritual before I'm allowed to talk shit about apostasy and Leviticus?

Do you ever find yourself in discussions about religion where the topics of discussion include Zoroaster?

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

You can criticize one bad thing without criticizing every other example of that bad thing. I don't need to go through the list of every Republican president just to talk about how bad Trump was. I don't need to go through the list of every serial killer to talk about how evil John Wayne Gacy was.

Christianity and Islam are the world's two biggest religions. Obviously, discussions about them will come up more than discussions about other religions in many parts of the world. "Yeah, but what about the Zoroastrians?" doesn't really make much headway in such discussions and isn't really relevant to them.

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[-] MartinXYZ@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Do you often find yourself in "discussions about religion" where your primary contribution is to complain about Christianity and Islam?

I live in Denmark where Christianity is the biggest religion, so it's the one I have had shoved down my throat the most, which makes it the most obvious to criticize (because it's the one I know the most about). As many people know Denmark has been on the news a lot lately because of people burning books. This has been a major topic in the Danish media even before the story spread across the world, so it's been something I've debated on the regular the last couple of years as well. Those debates have mostly focused on the book burners though, and my criticism would be limited to something like "it's just a book". This is why I mentioned those two religions in my original post.

I don't know much about Zoroastrianism or Buddhism, so I wouldn't know what to criticize. The same pretty much goes for Judaism, though I guess I know a bit more about that religion, seeing as Christianity is mostly built upon the Jewish scriptures.

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[-] fritobugger2017@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Covering the big three: Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism generally gets majority of the current worst offenders. But notes about the extremists version of Judaism, Buddhism, and other should be made too.

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[-] ziggurism@lemmy.world 74 points 1 year ago

I mean, do you think Islamophobia is rooted in theological disputes? The Christian nationalists who find common ground between Catholics, evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox, and Jews hate Muslims because of their almost indistinguishable tenets of faith?

[-] ren@lemmy.world 54 points 1 year ago

Yep. While technically being an Islamophobe isn’t racist, odds are the reason one is an Islamophobe has very little to do with them being Islamic.

[-] Imotali@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I hate Islam. I'm not racist.

I also hate any religion that states unequivocally in their holy book that certain classes of people are less than others.... which is a core tenet of Islamic and Christian beliefs.

I couldn't actually tell you if it's in the Tanakh, but it very well wouldn't surprise me.

Any positive experience and interaction I have with a Muslim is in spite of their beliefs and their religion being a bit backwards in places.

Edit: I also hate any religion that preaches that people are inherently evil or unworthy of salvation...... that shit is toxic af.

[-] hglman@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

Also, the hateful person does not care to distinguish between race, ethnicity, religion, or whatever other aspect they decide to hate. They have classified some attributes as making people not like them and hateable. The framework of analysis you are using is immaterial to the racist. That is, they do care that they are Islamic, just not with any subtlety.

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[-] TopShelfVanilla@sh.itjust.works 19 points 1 year ago

I'm content to shit all over your religion regardless of your ethnicity.

[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

Neat. What about the aforementioned religious nutjobs? You think they're engaged in sincere criticism of specific textual and cultural dogma? Because generally it looks like they're just being prejudiced assholes.

[-] TopShelfVanilla@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago

No different. Their religions are all trash. Do you have one? It's trash too. The only culture of religion is to do what you're told and not ask questions. That's trash.

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[-] rbesfe@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Uh, you sure about the Jews there bud? I don't recall many Christian nationalists having a particularly high opinion of Judaism. In fact I'd say they hate Jews more than they hate muslims

[-] GladiusB@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Have you never tried a Hebrew National? Shit is lit.

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[-] Moc@lemmy.world 49 points 1 year ago

Discriminating and/or being mean to Muslims is not cool. Thinking their religion is fucking stupid is cool. Same goes for the other religions.

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago

Religion is part of identity. You can't make fun of someone's religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.

Not to mention that the profoundly religious associate everything they do as acting in accordance with scripture. So by making a mockery of their faith, you are by extension the enemy of all that is good and just, and there's no difference in intent from their perspective.

That's why you can never try to reason with people who are religious. If they're going to interpret it that way anyways, may as well meet them at their level and accept the situation for what it is.

[-] Transcendant@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I don't think religious people are stupid per se for being religious, but I do think in most cases that they lost a crucial opportunity in childhood to form independant opinions and rational thought.

You make some good points though re trying to reason with religious people. Aside from the deep, deep lifelong programming... there's a little voice in the back of their mind that must be silenced, because it would be incredibly damaging to their psyche to realise they've tied themselves & their lives to something false.

[-] agent_flounder@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago

I don't disagree with any of that. However, deconversion does happen past childhood in some cases, thankfully.

[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Religion is part of identity. You can’t make fun of someone’s religion without also making fun of them for being stupid enough to believe it.

Don't sell yourself short. I know exactly what it is like being brought up religious and I have many people close to me who are devout, you can manage if I can. I feel bad with people infected with the mind virus. I want to help them. They are just as wise, as smart, as good as I am. The difference is, by pure luck, I am less infected than they are.

[-] rikudou@lemmings.world 5 points 1 year ago

It takes around 20 seconds to find the first logical fallacy in the Bible. So no, they're not as wise and smart.

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[-] qaz@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

I mean, that’s certainly not exclusive to religion. If you can’t reason with anybody who identifies as part of group there’s really not a lot of people left.

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[-] flucksy_bango@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

Not all bigotry is racist. I don't think mocking Islam is bigoted, but holy fuck can it be sometimes.

[-] 1847953620@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Singling out can be a form of xenophobia, in this case with the religion part simply being an excuse for it. You know, the way dogwhistles work. You don't betray the prejudiced part, you say something which technically you can argue for. Playing innocent saves the day again.

[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

Thinking Islam is a race is racist.

[-] kandoh@reddthat.com 10 points 1 year ago

Talking about Islam in a mocking way might not be considered racist, but it can definitely be offensive or disrespectful. Racism is more about discriminating against people based on their race or ethnicity, while religion involves beliefs. Still, making fun of any religion, including Islam, can hurt people's feelings. It's important to be mindful of how our words affect others and to have conversations that are respectful and understanding. While we have the right to debate and express opinions, it's good to approach these talks with empathy and consider how they might impact people emotionally.

[-] fkn@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

Why does this sound like chatgpt generated it?

[-] 1847953620@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Because you're trying to discredit it

[-] xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 1 year ago

No, it really has the recognizable ChatGPT writing style to it.

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[-] fkn@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Making fun of any religion, including Islam, can be considered disrespectful and offensive to believers. It's important to treat all religions with sensitivity and respect to promote understanding and harmony among different communities. Keep in mind that cultural and religious differences should be approached with empathy and consideration for the feelings of others.

It's the sentence structure at the end... The call for empathy and the consideration of others feelings. Chatgpt is programmed to respond in this way on "controversial" topics.

Edit:

Also, to answer your question. Bless your heart. I am not trying to discredit anything. I am trying to figure out if it's a bot and if I need to ban it from the community and report it to the admins... Sweetheart, you know it's not nice to be so aggressive in your accusations right?

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[-] TigrisMorte@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Other than you assume folks are Muslim because they are brown, yeah, sure, wahtever.

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[-] madcaesar@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

When people make something stupid their identity, and I call the stupid thing stupid, and they feel offended, that is not on me.

[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Mocking an attribute of a group, rather than the group directly, can still be racist.

[-] fkn@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

All racism is bigotry, but not all bigotry is racism.

To say that Islam is a race is racist.

Insulting ideas isn't bigotry. Insulting all of the people who have those ideas, because of those ideas is bigotry not racism.

[-] havokdj@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

ahem

Muslims are an oppressed race of people

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this post was submitted on 26 Aug 2023
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