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Proton is dead (for me). Let's collect and discuss alternatives! ✊🛡 (lemmy.world)
submitted 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) by ShotDonkey@lemmy.world to c/privacy@lemmy.ml
192 comments fedilink hide all child comments

In an unexpected mask off "secure" email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton's services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let's collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇

Always try to provide:

-Server location (jurisdiction)

-Governance

-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency

-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)

-Pricing and links

If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.

#ProtonExodus

Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116

Edit:typo

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[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 216 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Misinformation. OP is advocating that you shoot yourself in the foot.

The CEO said something silly on Twitter which revealed either that (a) he shares an exceedingly banal opinion with literally half of America or (b) he's not above a bit of preemptive sycophancy to advance his (positive) anti-trust agenda.

There's nothing particularly scandalous in the offending tweet:

  • Implying that the Democrats are now "the party of big business" is arguably true (and very boring)
  • Implying that the Republicans now "stand for the little guys" is dumb but also arguably true, unfortunately - the working classes swung to Trump in the recent election while the Democrats are fast becoming a party of high-earning elites (which is why they lost)
  • Saying that the antitrust actions began under Trump I is, well, true

Proton is not owned Zuck-like by its CEO. It's controlled by a foundation with other stakeholders on the board, including the inventor of the Web himself. In its niche it is still by far the best option. Ditching it for a nebulous non-existent alternative because the CEO expressed a dumb and extremely commonplace opinion is just silly and self-defeating.

PS: to be clear, OP is peddling misinformation because it's not true that "Proton took the stance" of anything. It's the personal opinion of the CEO that's at issue. It's a major distinction. I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual's right to have their own thoughts.

PPS: to be extra clear, my comments are about the post above, not stuff that people are reading elsewhere. But the substance stands. See discussion for detail.

[-] CatsGoMOW@lemmy.world 155 points 13 hours ago

I largely agree with what you’re saying, except the official Proton Mastadon account doubled down on that personal opinion. That seems pretty clear that it’s endorsed not just by that one individual on the board.

[-] AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev 60 points 13 hours ago
[-] HiddenLayer555@lemmy.ml 48 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Archives in case they delete it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503

https://archive.is/lBQd8

Text copy of their post:

Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.

Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.

At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.

By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.

Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.

Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.

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[-] chris@lemm.ee 40 points 13 hours ago

Just puked a little after reading that.

[-] errer@lemmy.world 17 points 12 hours ago

Here’s what I don’t get: if the leadership at Proton believes this shit, why share it on social media at all? It clearly isn’t going to make anyone in the left happy. Are they trying to capture porn-loving MAGA?

[-] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 11 hours ago

Appeasement to the fascists so they don't get banned like they did to tiktok (I assume)

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[-] mean_bean279@lemmy.world 87 points 13 hours ago

I love how you’re claiming misinformation while posting misinformation. It’s not the CEO, it’s a board member. That said, the company also officially posted these ideas on their Bluesky account.

This isn’t a “CEO” expressing a belief, it’s the board, and now the official company line.

I’m not disagreeing with their post particularly on corporate dems, but this is a company and not a persons sole belief.

Also, if dems are the party of big business then why are all these big businesses donating to Trump? Does that just mean republicans are the party of even bigger business?

[-] conicalscientist@lemmy.world 34 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Their bullet points are spin-doctoring.

Also the comment got a few dozen upvotes almost immediately. Suspicious.

[-] mean_bean279@lemmy.world 8 points 9 hours ago

I was thinking the same thing. In all the threads about it. It just seemed oddly suspicious and not typical of what the digital privacy community has typically believed… I mean, I’m also not going to homogenize a community like that though and Proton has been a mainstay.

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[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 64 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

  1. It isn't misinformation.

  2. Someone like this board member being a traitor to his species isn't covered by "opinion". No normalizing nazis. It's such a low bar. He couldn't clear it.

  3. He blasted his treachery over the public airwaves. His privacy isn't being violated.

This whole comment feels like an exercise in using all the best words to miss the point. We know, as does this probably-lying board member, that Republicans are only going to go more authoritarian, and the only reason they would pretend to care about big tech abuses is to grab the steering wheel from them to commit far worse abuses. No company that gets into bed with traitors is going to become the new center of my digital life.

Tuta for email, syncthing for photos bc I'm not self-hosting, mullvad for VPN.

[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 13 points 13 hours ago

Sorry but I won't participate in this juvenile trivializing of the word "Nazi". Yes, I know that's become almost a meaningless slur at this point, but personally I just will not take seriously anybody who throws it around like this. Perhaps because I'm European. Perhaps because I studied history. It's not serious.

[-] zqps@sh.itjust.works 38 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 9 hours ago)

Mate they're mainstreaming fascist rhetoric. Over 60% of Republicans now believe in the Great Replacement theory aka White Genocide, which used to be a conspiracy theory on the fringes of white nationalist propaganda just about a decade ago.

I encourage you to not get hung up on symbolism and instead look to ideology and rhetoric.

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[-] homicidalrobot@lemm.ee 21 points 12 hours ago

It's because you're a centrist.

[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 13 points 12 hours ago

You say it like it's an insult! Actually I usually vote green. And in Europe the greens are really greens, rather than just spoilers who help Bushes and Trumps into power.

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[-] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 30 points 13 hours ago

Implying that the Democrats are now "the party of big business" is arguably true (and very boring)

While true in some scenarios, in anti-trust Lina khan's ftc has done significantly more than trump ever did. Biden keeping her over the protest of countless business execs and daily articles in the wall street journal on how she's ruining America shows some commitment to prosecuting big tech.

Meanwhile, trump's anti-trust moves were mostly based off petty issues he had with the ceos or the platforms having a "liberal bias". Now that every big tech ceo has fallen in line and given him $1 million for his inauguration I doubt we'll see much movement on that front.

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[-] refalo@programming.dev 13 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

I find it disappointing that people interested in privacy would have such little respect for a private individual’s right to have their own thoughts.

Ding ding ding.

It seems the vast majority of people do NOT want to allow speech they don't like, no matter the consequences. That requires too much forward thinking. Excuse me while I watch history repeat itself...

[-] Guttural@jlai.lu 13 points 10 hours ago

Oh I want him to be allowed to speak his mind. I just don't want to give a Trumpet any money, and especially not after their annoucement of a crypto wallet and ventures into AI crap.

Free speech doesn't mean I should spend my money there.

[-] JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 7 points 11 hours ago

Yes I tend to share your analysis.

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[-] Siathes@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 10 hours ago

Sooo, can we not create and/or finance our own? Please be gentle…but…is there not enough of us paying for proton and other privacy apps to fund a floss or non-profit version? I mean there are tech nerds all over this place, along with law nerds and political nerds…etc..(meant with love btw) that would have an instant user base.

I pledge here to sub up to $15usd/month for any lemmy person that starts an entity that provides us with what we need with ethics and morality of lemmy common.

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[-] carlytm@lemm.ee 176 points 15 hours ago

Sigh.

Goddammit. I'm so fucking tired.

[-] cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 79 points 15 hours ago

This is how they win.

[-] WhatSay@slrpnk.net 23 points 13 hours ago

Like zombies, slow and steady, dumb and hungry

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[-] ShotDonkey@lemmy.world 24 points 11 hours ago

OK I think I will move to Posteo. Great security, privacy focussed, servers in Germany, running with 100% renewable energy. Prices are ok, too. Ticks all boxes.

[-] RiQuY@lemm.ee 2 points 6 hours ago

Check Mailbox.org

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[-] red@lemmy.zip 26 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

using services based on the ceo's political leaning instead of actual features and policies of that service? that's dumb, tell me when that political leaning reflects in polices of proton then we can talk

[-] rainerloeten@lemmy.world 24 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

I guess the assumption is that over time they inevitably will have an effect and people want to switch before that happens.

[-] Anonymouse@lemmy.world 8 points 10 hours ago

You're both right. I'd do the same to jump ship before the enshitification sets in. Often, I've seen how innocuous policy and feature changes creep in and before you know it, the switching costs are too high.

I had an app on my phone and one day they removed the export function. I only used it for backing up my data but when they raised rates and started slamming with ads, I wanted to leave but could not take my data with me. I ended to just uninstalling and starring over elsewhere.

Also, this is exactly what happened to reddit. They cut the api first so it was harder to take your communities and saved stuff with you.

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[-] 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 27 points 12 hours ago

Tweet is from early december. Why is it blowing up now?

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 14 points 10 hours ago

I guess on the one hand people are anxious about Trumps inaugeration and on the other hand this is a great opportunity for competitors or otherwise opposed people to launch an astroturfing campaign off of it.

When looking at posts titled has gone "full MAGA" for saying they feel Trump is more likely to enact antitrust rules against big tech than Democrats who let them down the past years, is just absurd.

It is the same line of reasoning like claiming the WHO to have been a chinese asset because they supported some of Chinas anti-Covid measures.

[-] swordgeek@lemmy.ca 83 points 15 hours ago

Wow!

Of all companies, this is one I didn't expect.

Damn.

[-] sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip 42 points 14 hours ago

Why would this be unexpected?

Proton already handed over the IP of a climate protester to authorities several years ago, while boasting that they had a no log policy.

https://therecord.media/protonmail-forced-to-collect-an-activists-ip-address-in-police-investigation

Every time, in the past few years, that I bring this up, everyone just acts like I'm setting an impossible standard and no alternative exists.

Proton has been shady for years.

[-] Zadhu@slrpnk.net 20 points 13 hours ago

From reading that article it looks like they were only using and able to log the IP address when the person logged in to their protonmail account specifically - not VPN.

They even state that VPNs can not be forced to log under the same legal order and are treated differently so in this case it seems the activists were not using the VPN while accessing their emails.

Although I dont agree with even the logging of the email IP, it appears like the user shot themselves in the foot like that other case where someone used their real name in the username and that obviosly has to be logged in some way.

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[-] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 54 points 14 hours ago

the good news is this is a lesson to never trust any entity whose role in the world is to accumulate capital

[-] xapr@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 14 hours ago

What's insane is that didn't Proton just recently announce they were converting to a non-profit?

Yes, they did: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation

[-] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 14 hours ago

Yea, and Andy Yen is only one of five members on the board of the Non-Profit organization, so you'll just have to gamble that everyone else isn't this weird (if you still want to continue using Proton services, that is, your choice 🤷‍♂️).

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[-] bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 78 points 15 hours ago

Phew! For a moment I thought you were talking about the steam compatibility thingy.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 28 points 14 hours ago

Mullvad is supposed to be a safe and secure VPN.

[-] Lemmchen@feddit.org 15 points 13 hours ago

Unfortunately not a mail or storage provider.

[-] hannesh93@feddit.org 29 points 12 hours ago

If this wasn't enough of a wakeupcall to not put all the eggs in one basket then what is? Companies are literally doing this to lock you into their service so it's harder to switch since you then have to find X new services instead of just one.

Better go with one that'd specialized for each service you need...

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[-] lazzerot@startrek.website 14 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

Protonmail has been my main email provider for the past 7 years, and unless its CEO decides to sell it to Trump or Musk I honestly don't see how his stupid private or not so private opinions are worth the hassle of changing my email for the million things I use my main and all the other emails I registered with Protonmail.
Most rich people have very dubious or outright awful political opinions and unless you're rich enough to have someone build you an alternative or deconnected enough from society/only exist in programmer circles and are able to live entirely on FOSS software I don't see why the average user should care about the CEO's political stance. Maybe that's my ignorant opinion as a European, but would you stop using Linux if you found out Linus Torvalds secretly loves Windows? Probably not.

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[-] AnAmericanPotato@programming.dev 23 points 14 hours ago

Tuta.com is similar to Proton Mail + Calendar.

  • Location: Germany

  • Governance: Private GmbH (German corporation, similar to an American LLC)

  • Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency: Better than Proton IMHO. All their apps are open source and available on F-Droid. They encrypt email headers (unlike Proton, who are weaselly about this in their marketing materials).

  • User Experience: Ehhhh...6? I'm not in the best position to compare because I do not have a premium plan, so I am not able to examine features like inbox rules/filters. Much like Proton, it doesn't support full-text email search unless you have it cache your entire mailbox locally (either via the web site or app). They do not support POP or IMAP, but do offer their own desktop and mobile apps.

  • Pricing: €3/month for 20GB, €8/month for 500GB. https://tuta.com/pricing

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this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2025
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Privacy

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Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

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