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[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 32 points 3 days ago

A reason is an explanation. An excuse is an attempt to shift responsibility.

Many people will create a disingenuous reason to absolve themselves of responsibility.

For instance, if someone sleeps in and leaves home 15 minutes late in the morning and arrives to work late, they may honestly say, "traffic was terrible on highway 7." And while it's true that if traffic had magically been nice that day they'd have made it on time, the honest reason they're late is because they slept in. The traffic is their excuse.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

While true, I think what the OP in the image is trying to say is that even if I give you a reason you say it's an excuse when it wasn't.

I think I'm neruotypical, but I'd get this all the time from my father. I'm not making an excuse, I'm not spinning anything to shift blame, I'm answering the question and their assumption is that I'm lying to shift blame.

Really the conversation in the image should be: why are you an asshole that can't accept that shit happens. Like the following:

"why were you late?"

"I left on time, was walking down the hall, tripped and spilled something so I cleaned it up."

"I don't want your excuses!"

...well I don't know how else to answer your question without simply explaining the facts of the situation...

[-] twig@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 3 days ago

This isn't really a neurotypical vs atypical thing. Some people are just assholes and want to exert control over others/don't value the reasoning of others.

[-] Focal@pawb.social 23 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Not autistic, but I teach people with mild cases of autism.

The "excuse" I most often hear is that they haven't started doing the work they're supposed to be doing, because they didn't have their computer there.

That's less of a reason and more of an excuse, because the solution is easy for these kids. "Go get the computer". They know they can, and in fact often do.

The real reason is that they'd rather sit and chat with their friends instead of doing work (who doesn't?), and if they were honest about that, I'd appreciate it a lot more.

Often, I guess you could equate an excuse to a "bad reason".

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 10 points 3 days ago

A reason that you could have solved.

[-] Focal@pawb.social 3 points 3 days ago

I mean, yeah, you're not wrong.

And I do solve these all the time, but it's his computer, so I don't think it's unreasonable to expect he'd bring it when he realizes he needs it for his work?

The only reason I call it an "excuse" is because it's not the real reason, or at least it isn't the full reason. We know what the real reason is. He admits as much when we talk as well, and that's fine.

I'm not some super strict and punishing teacher who looks for reasons (or excuses) to punish these kids. Rather, I try to talk to them and understand them, which is why I'm also here in this community :)

[-] SaphiraGrace@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 days ago

Hi @Focal@pawb.social. I'm a late identified and DXed #ActuallyAutistic individual here with pretty much an entire autistic/neurodivergent family that has been studying autism from a internal perspective as well as externally through the greater autistic community since my clinical DX back in 2020 - not just someone who teaches kids with "mild autism".

You are wrong in quite a few counts here - let me respectfully explain:

First off let me address the biggest one. This is a bit long but insanely important so bear with me: There is no such thing as "mild", "moderate", or "severe" autism. Language really matters here because the way we speak about autism directly affects how much assistance, acceptances, accommodations and affirmation autistic individuals get within greater society. This externally perceived version of "autism severity" is the number one reason I lived for almost three full decades before I was even seen as autistic. It is very harmful.

Autism is a SPECTRUM. Not a "gradient" as so many individuals perceive it to be. For any artists or artistically inclined readers on here - all of us should know the difference. A gradient is a blending of one or more colors in a linear fashion, your most common representation as black to white with all the varying tonalities of grey in the middle . That is NOT representative of autism whatsoever. It is not a linear condition.

Autism is clinically listed in the DSM5 as Autism **spectrum ** Condition (or "ASC", which is what I personally prefer than "disorder", or "ASD" because Autism is a neurotype, but I will get into that later) for a reason: a spectrum is a full scale color wheel with the entire visible light spectrum we see as color. It contains all primary, secondary and tertiary colors including shades and tints of each from dark to light. It is a much wider range of presentations, symptoms, experiences and expressions.

Instead of a gradient starting at mild and ending at severe - think of autism like a color wheel where each color is separated into its own gradient starting from the center of the color wheel to the outer edge. Each color represents a perceived autistic trait or symptom - not how their autism presents as a whole, but just one of those elements. Lets take being hyper-verbal or nonverbal for instance and assign that particular autism-related trait to the color red. I might be closer to the outer edge of the color wheel in this "red" section but in the blue section, let's say blue represents executive dysfunction and getting tasks done in a neurotypically expected time frame, I might be closer to the center of the color wheel (I struggle a lot with C-PTSD surrounding certain cleaning tasks and also am ADHD which also has its own executive functioning difficulties around task management and completion). THIS is a much more accurate representation of what autism really is and feels like to an #ActuallyAutistic person. You can easily google visual representations of this by searching "Autism Color Wheel" or "Autism Spectrum vs Gradient".

"Then what can I say that denotes how much someone struggles with their autism?" - One word. Masking. Masking is just what it sounds like. Some autistic individuals have lived a life where they are able to mask their presentations and symptoms at different levels - I am one such individual due to my upbringing as a female-socialized girl into woman (which I am using for simplicity despite being more non-binary myself). Masking does not imply that the impact of being autistic is lessened at all however. I still experience the full breadth and width of being autistic in a extremely neurotypicallized world. But I have learned to conceal it to the outside perspective for my own safety. Masking is not always conscious. There is a lot of fawning and people pleasing trauma responses that we simply learn over time unconsciously as a direct result of trial and error.

For instance, when I was little, one of my favorite stims (self-stimulation, or "stimming" is a self regulating response to stress of attempt to focus) was to chew handfuls of hair or the collar of my t-shirts. Obviously - my mother didn't care for that and instead of providing me with an acceptable alternative, she told me to stop it all together. The need to stim didn't leave me - it just went internally where it caused a bunch of psychological stress and harm that would go into overload if I didn't find another way to externalize the need to regulate. I only masked it and made it externally invisible - but it still affected me internally. It is for this reason why although so many autistic individuals know how to mask to the point that they look neurotypical or "less autistic".

I didn't stop being autistic when I internalized my external needs (which can be so inherently psychologically dangerous and causes a lot of depression and self-harmful thoughts to even the point of wishing to be un-alived) I masked my autistic traits so I wouldn't be bullied or reprimanded or singled out anymore. That didn't take my autistic needs or traits away - it just hid them from external view. I am just as autistic as I was when I was little, I just have learned strategies to cope and get by with my difficulties in public - but behind closed doors I still exhibit "little girl" stims and challenges. I still have meltdowns. I still have times of situational mutism and go non-verbal. I still flail and flap my arms when I am emotionally dysregulated.

Ok, with that out of the way: respectfully yet again (my aim is to educate; not hound on you despite the length of this post - that's just because this stuff isn't super simple to cover and requires a bit of clarification before going on to my next point:

Please, don't ever assign "real reasons" without first speaking to your autistic student. As you might have surmised above (if you even read this far. I promise I will do a TLDR at the end); from an external perspective: you will NEVER fully know the reason for why an autistic individual does something unless you ASK THEM. Unfortunately, depending on the level of self-awareness and internal discovery work the autistic individual in question has done - they might not rightfully know. Or - they might not yet have the language to verbally express what they know, or might have not yet heard their own lived experiences echoed in someone else's account of a similar situation. I know I didn't. I had no idea about half of the autistic spectrum-y things I do or need until I heard it voiced from another autistic. I am still learning all the ways my neurological wiring affects me (oh yea: "Neurotype" is how someone is neurologically wired - think different types of operating systems like MAC vs PC or Apple vs Windows. "Neurotypical" is like one, "Neurodivergent" is like the other; they still function - just very differently from one another. But if you try to open a program built for one in the other - it just doesn't work).

Remember assuming reasons or intent for anyone only makes an ASS out of U and ME. Instead - just like you should with any human that deserves respect (which should be all of them if you are a decent person) you should ask your students why they are doing whatever is upsetting you or seems to be "non compliant". They might not even know - but it does not give you any right to assign intent or reason for what they are doing. That is just poor educatorship . Instead, do some more research and make an inferred hypothesis and then CHECK with your students by **asking ** them if u are getting close to what might be going on.

Personally; my hypothesis to the above scenario in your comment is that the verbal excuse they have given you is a default excuse they have learned to give out of ignorance to the real reason they either might not know or might not know how to verbalize what is actually going on in a way that would be palatable to your expectations. They probably also know that you are more likely to not listen to their actual explanation and deem you too reactive to even grace you with a more eloquently verbalized actual reason - such as executive dysfunction or trauma responses which are both reasonable explanations for neurodivergent individuals and deserve assessment and accommodation for the task if needed. If a student of yours is having executive functioning difficulties with an assigned task - it is up to you as their educator to figure out why they are by speaking to them and come up with an accommodation or provide them with either mental or physical tools to better do the task requested.

That is not a failure on them; that is a failure fully on you - as being an educator is much more than just telling people to do things and expecting them to do them without error or issue. Being an educator is about being flexible to your students needs -regardless of neurotype or invisible disability (or physical disability for that matter). If I were in your shoes; I would do my damnedest to learn how to better accommodate and assist differently abled and differently neurologically wired individuals and stop assigning intent and reason to why you are having challenges teaching these individuals.

"Excuse vs Explanation" is a huge topic of mine that I love to educate on - but frankly, without the above groundwork to precede it there is no way to explain and educate you. If you have gotten this far I will grant you this: Excuses are often perceived as "lazy" reasons why someone wont do something. It assumes that there is no logical reason - externally or internally - for someone to not comply with a task. It assumes incompetence, it assumes intent on not doing the task out of sheer insolence and insubordination. Very rarely is this actually the case.

If you have zero idea the struggles your students face as neurodivergent individuals - not just in your classroom, but in the world and society

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[-] Meissnerscorpsucle@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago

I always viewed the difference as intent and not mutually exclusive. reason explains your thought process, actions, and events. Excuse are reasons presented in a manor meant to shift responsibility.

[-] Samvega 4 points 3 days ago

Excuse are reasons presented in a manor

A country manor? Or 'manor' as in a Southern England English idiom for 'house'?

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[-] pixxelkick@lemmy.world 148 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

An excuse removes responsibility.

A reason does not.

"You are excused" means you no longer are responsible for the outcome.

"I literally wasn't present when it happened, so I'm not responsible for the outcome" < excuse, which can be valid

"I knew what was going to happen, here is why I did it for a good reason" < reason

Example: three kids are present, 2 are graffiti'ing the back of a house

When caught, 1 kid says "I was trying to stop them, they wouldn't listen". This is an excuse, they're claiming they aren't at fault and not responsible for the graffiti.

Another says "the home owner deserved it, he's an asshole", this is a reason as they are clearly not avoiding responsibility.

When you try and use an excuse to get out of something thar you clearly are responsible for, that's when you will get served the "I dont want an excuse" line.

[-] FilthyShrooms@lemmy.world 37 points 4 days ago

Not only was this well explained, but the short segments are great for my ADHD-phobia of large blocks of text

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[-] BluesF@lemmy.world 19 points 3 days ago

So, preface - not neurotypical, but I dont really struggle with this sort of thing personally. At least I think so lol.

An excuse is a reason. One dictionary definition is "a reason that you give to explain why you did something wrong." When you have done something wrong, people don't usually want the reasons. They want contrition, or help resolving it. Also note another dictionary definition - "a false reason that you give to explain why you do something." There is a perception that any reason given after doing something wrong may well be false, intended to deflect blame rather than genuinely explain. In general, there are times when it is appropriate to explain, and times when it is not.

It's frustrating that someone would directly ask why you did something while not wanting an answer, but when people are stressed or frustrated - i.e. when something has gone wrong - they do sometimes just lash out with questions designed to accuse rather than to elicit an actual answer. The question: "why did you do it this way", from someone who is angry, might really mean: "I'm angry with you because I can't fathom what reason you could possibly have for doing it this way, now that it has gone wrong." The solution isn't to provide that answer, it's to resolve whatever the problem is and let them calm down. There may come a point when explaining the reason is appropriate later.

Outside the specific context of the question - in general, if something bad happens as a result of your actions, explaining them isn't the first thing you should do. First apologise, then try to resolve whatever the problem is. You can talk reasons later, it definitely can be helpful to understand how things went wrong... But only if you have the intention of trying to avoid it in the future. If you come off as trying to deflect blame... That's going to be perceived as an excuse. Accept the blame first, and your reasons will be more likely accepted as an attempt to avoid future problems.

[-] Underwaterbob@lemm.ee 13 points 3 days ago

I think the implication is that a reason is out of your control, while an excuse is of your own doing.

Like say you slept in and were late for work. If you slept in because of a medical condition or the power went out and your alarm didn't go off, it's a reason. If you slept in because you stayed up too late or forgot to set your alarm, it's an excuse.

Not that the two terms aren't interchangable in a lot of cases.

[-] Ookami38@sh.itjust.works 20 points 3 days ago

I think a reason involves reason~ing~. If I'm interrogating someone about a situation like this, I want to know the why of the actions. People who say "stop giving me excuses" are just assholes, and didn't want a reason anyway.

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[-] PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 13 points 3 days ago

They practice this crap in the mirror to make themselves sound cool and be a bully.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 16 points 3 days ago

It's an excuse when they're mad and a reason when they're not

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[-] Beacon@fedia.io 83 points 5 days ago

It's not just you, neurotypicals on the receiving end of that hate it too. Everyone gets told that garbage line once in a while. It's always said by someone on a power trip, they're trying to put you down into a place beneath them

[-] Akuchimoya@startrek.website 22 points 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Excuses are "this is why I'm not at fault" and places the blame on someone or something else (including a circumstance). A reason is "this is why it happened" without trying to self-justify. A lot times reasons come across as excuses because the person has not taken responsibility for what they've done.

If a reason doesn't come with ownership of fault, it's an excuse.

Edit: see comment below about fault and responsibility

but an admission of fault for something that wasn't your fault is also bad

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[-] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 50 points 4 days ago

If they ask for an explanation and complain about being given an excuse, then they don't want to hear the series of events which occurred. They want to hear which of your character flaws is responsible and that you're ashamed of that flaw.

Source: drag speaks fluent neurotypical

[-] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 80 points 5 days ago

In reply to the meme: Anyone who asks why and then cuts off the person they asked immediately assumed that ANY response would be an excuse, since they didn't listen to it.

[-] SARGE@startrek.website 40 points 5 days ago

They just want to be angry. They don't care about anything else, and anything anyone says is irrelevant.

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[-] RangerJosie@lemmy.world 13 points 3 days ago

They never wanted a real answer. Just to flex their tiny portion of power over you.

[-] MidnightBanjo@lemmy.zip 30 points 4 days ago

It’s a problem even for those of us who are neurotypical (my son is not which is why I follow this community also, so as he gets older I can understand better).

But as someone said, bosses especially will say this and they really just want you to say it was your fault.

In my mind, the difference is if you are excusing the behavior.

“I’m sorry I’m late, I missed my alarm” is an explanation because I’m not excusing the behavior, just explaining.

“I’m late because my alarm didn’t go off” is an excuse because I’m asking to excuse the behavior.

That said, excuses seem to have this bad reputation as being just a reason for laziness, but they really shouldn’t as they can be valid.

Example, my work requires 2FA to log in, which I get via a text. I use a local carrier and “our vendor who handles texting went down”. In that sense, that was my excuse for being late getting logged in - and it wasn’t laziness.

[-] CandleTiger@programming.dev 12 points 3 days ago

The way I use those words:

A reason is a cause for an event or a thought process that caused a decision.

An excuse is one of:

  • a true reason why a person did a bad thing
  • an explanation (true or false) why the cause of events or decisions was somebody else’s actions, not the speaker’s actions
  • an explanation (true or false) pretending to be a reason, that isn’t actually the true cause of the event or decision

If I said, “don’t give me any of your excuses” to somebody, I would be meaning all of:

  • something bad happened and I think it’s your fault
  • I want you to agree with me that it’s your fault and accept blame
  • I think you have a pattern of not seeing (or not admitting) that your actions cause bad things, and that’s happening again now

This is a bunch of very negative stuff to be meaning. It could be whoever said that is an asshole, blind, or unfair. If they treat everybody with negative shit like this that’s likely and there’s just no winning with such a person.

I actually have said stuff like “don’t give me excuses” to my kids. I think I’m not an asshole. When I said it, I thought my kid was flailing about doing dumb shit without thinking. What I meant for my kid was, “I want for you to start thinking about how a chain of events fits together, and I want you to accept you have the ability and the responsibility to see a bad outcome forming, and to take actions to make a better outcome instead.”

[-] fern@lemmy.autism.place 14 points 3 days ago

“I want for you to start thinking about how a chain of events fits together, and I want you to accept you have the ability and the responsibility to see a bad outcome forming, and to take actions to make a better outcome instead.”

Have you considered just telling them that? You're possibly obfuscating an important lesson for them by using a cultural phrase, and it's not uncommon for kids to learn the wrong lesson out of it.

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[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 17 points 4 days ago

It's not a neurotypical thing, it's an asshole thing.

"Go fuck yourself" is probably the response you're looking for. Or maybe just ending the conversation.

[-] AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.world 57 points 5 days ago

Excuses are generally made to avoid responsibility, and they aren't always completely accurate. Explanations just clarify what happened.

The thing is, the person receiving an explanation might well just assume it's an excuse, and it's hard to convince them otherwise.

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[-] Hacksaw@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 days ago

When someone talks they're telling you something about themselves, not about you. They might be telling you what they think about you, but that's something they think, not something you are.

In this case there are two things going on. One is the reason vs excuse, which is a blurry line vaguely separated by accountability and how much control you had over the situation.

The second and most important is that your boss is telling you he's an asshole who is more interested in making you feel bad than salvaging this situation and improving on the future.

That's the difference between nt and nd. Most nts will pick up on the fact that the boss is an asshole and there was never a correct answer. Nds on the other hand are more likely to internalize the situation wondering what they did wrong and how to improve future outcomes because they assume the criticism was honest and well reasoned and that there was a correct response.

The expectation of honest and productive exchange is unfortunately something assholes often abuse to bully neurodivergent individuals.

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[-] UmeU@lemmy.world 4 points 3 days ago

A reason is an explanation although not all explanations are reasonable.

An excuse is an attempt to justify a reason/explanation.

Excuses are used when the expiation is not reasonable.

[-] Kwakigra@beehaw.org 4 points 3 days ago

The mistake here is that the person explaining is interested in things like being correct or promoting efficiency while the adversary is only interested in hierarchy and dominating the explainer within their social context. That's the miscommunication happening.

[-] superkret@feddit.org 19 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

When I get that line, I end the conversation. As politely as is just necessary.
I refuse to be scolded and lectured like a child, and if it's a work setting, I would probably fire off a couple resumés that very evening.
I'm too old to demean myself in the workplace. I am of equal value as everyone else in the company, even if some ~~make~~ are paid more money and can assign tasks to me. That doesn't make them higher-ups.

[-] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Because it is not a question. They are not asking for information. They are complaining about your work by recriminating you. Like a rethoric question where the answer is "because you're stupid".

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this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2024
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