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[-] Dasus@lemmy.world 10 points 1 hour ago

For some reason this doesn't feel like good news.

[-] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 5 points 1 hour ago

After they decide to abandon their AI project can we use them for something meaningful?

[-] BigBrainBrett2517@lemmy.world 2 points 1 hour ago

Probably not... It's a pretty outdated energy source already.

[-] RedFrank24@lemmy.world 46 points 11 hours ago

At last, we'll be seeing nuclear reactors being created using Agile! Fail early, fail often, hopefully don't kill everyone!

[-] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 4 points 3 hours ago

Amazon has a space program with rockets, Google is acquiring the nuclear facilities, will Microsoft develop a weapons manufacturing facility?

[-] tronx4002@lemmy.world 35 points 12 hours ago

I am suprised to see all the negativity. I for one think this is awesome and would love to see SMRs become more mainstream.

[-] asdfasdfasdf@lemmy.world 4 points 1 hour ago

I think the negativity is more about it being used for AI than to solve any important problems with the world.

[-] towerful@programming.dev 19 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

I agree, and it is possibly the only good thing to come out of AI.
Like people asking "why do we need to go to the moon?!".

Fly-by-wire (ie pilot controls decoupled from physical actuators), so modern air travel.

Integrated circuits (IE multiple transistors - and other components - in the same silicon package). Basically miniaturisation and reduction in power consumption of computers.

GPS. The Apollo missions lead to the rocket tech/science for geosynchronous orbits require for GPS.


This time it is commercial.
I'd rather the power requirements were covered by non-carbon sources. However it proves the tech for future use.

For a similar example, I have a strong dislike of Elon Musk. He has ruined the potential of Twitter and Tesla, but SpaceX has had some impressive accomplishments.

Google are a shitty company. I wish the nuclear power went towards shutting down carbon power.
But SOMEONE has to take the risk. I wish that someone was a government. But it's Google. So.... Kind of a win?

[-] Silentiea 7 points 7 hours ago

I'd rather the power requirements were covered by non-carbon sources

Is nuclear not?

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 95 points 17 hours ago

Crazy how quickly we've gone from "Nuclear is a dead technology, it can't work and its simply too expensive to build more of. Y'all have to use fossil fuels instead" to "We're building nuclear plants as quickly as our contractors can draft them, but only for doing experiments in high end algorithmic brute-forcing".

Would be nice if some of that dirt-cheap, low-emission, industrial capacity electricity was available for the rest of us.

[-] RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 5 hours ago

Well, once the AI hype calms down and people realize the current approach won't lead to actual intelligence or "The Singularity", there may be quite some nuclear plants left over. That or they will be used to mine shitcoins.

[-] _stranger_@lemmy.world 13 points 10 hours ago
  1. Tax them enough that they don't have the cash to just up and build their own personal-use nuclear powered, nation spanning infrastructure.

  2. Use those taxes to build a nation spanning nuclear infrastructure that everyone can use.

[-] JamesTBagg@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

Eh, I would say investment into R&D should be encouraged and maybe allow tax write offs. Even of the end goal is a private power source. Once that R&D turns into workable, operable, sellable products, then tax the fuck out of them. Perhaps disallow making things that can be a boon to public infrastructure from being deem proprietary, so that it can be more easily adapted to public use.
I dunno, I'm typing from my couch after a few beers.

[-] Silentiea 2 points 7 hours ago

I've got so many ads so far for how adding new taxes is bad even if it pays for good things, and all of the issues they are arguing about aren't even adding any taxes. Actually adding taxes seems like a great way to make political enemies, even though it's often the best tool there is for a thing.

[-] Zementid@feddit.nl 46 points 17 hours ago

Fun Times! Because everyone pays for the waste and when something goes wrong. Privatizing Profits while Socializing Losses. The core motor of capitalism.

[-] ahal@lemmy.ca 11 points 17 hours ago

Everyone pays for not using nuclear too, a thousand fold more so.

[-] BaroqueInMind@lemmy.one 6 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

It's almost like the brand spanking new tech to make small nuclear reactors are extremely cost prohibitive and risky, and to lower the cost someone needs to spend money to increase supply.

[-] towerful@programming.dev 2 points 12 hours ago

If only that was the government that invested in the R&D and tech to make it happen.
Gaining funds from taxes (meaningful taxes), and investing that money in making their country better.

Hopefully this decision is because carbon taxes that will make consumer products representative of the actual cost of the item (not the exploitative cost). >

No no, let the free market decide.
Fucking AI threatening to replace basic jobs (when it's more suited to replace the C-Suite) gobling up energy and money, too-big-to-fail bailouts and loophole tax rules bullshit.

So yeh, someone needs to spend the money and that should be the government.
Because they should realise that carbon fuel sources are a death sentence.

[-] BaroqueInMind@lemmy.one 3 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

I'm glad you don't make the decisions because I don't want my taxes, that I work hard for and pay money into, to be spent by the government on highly-likely dogshit experimental brand new nuke tech that may eventually cost more money later on to maintain, and I prefer they spend it renovating existing infrastructure or building tried/true legacy nuke plant designs.

[-] towerful@programming.dev 1 points 11 hours ago

Your taxes already go towards this.
That's how governments leverage capitalism to placate the people. Grants for green energy initiatives.
Private companies get free money for taking some amount of risk because they are likely to profit massively from it.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/nuclear/google-agrees-to-multi-reactor-power-deal-with-nuclear-startup-kairos
Kairos is getting free money (grants & tax breaks) and profits from this. Google is extremely likely (can't find a source) to be getting free money for this

Companies EXIST to extract profit.
Of one of the worlds most successful companies is doing this, it's because "line goes up".

I'd prefer this happend so that "humans survive".
But "humans don't die faster" is fine for now.

(I guess "humans" means "poor humans". As in anyone that doesn't outright own 2 homes.)

[-] Silentiea 4 points 7 hours ago

The day I lost all respect for my father was when he told me in all seriousness that the fundamental purpose of capitalism was to make people happy.

[-] hamsterkill@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 14 hours ago

To be fair here, no one's certain this will be cost-effective either. The new techs make it worth trying though.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago)

no one’s certain this will be cost-effective either

One of the great sins of nuclear energy programs implemented during the 50s, 60s, and 70s was that it was too cost effective. Very difficult to turn a profit on electricity when you're practically giving it away. Nuclear energy functions great as a kind-of loss-leader, a spur to your economy in the form of ultra-low-cost utilities that can incentivize high-energy consumption activities (like steel manufacturing and bulk shipping and commercial grade city-wide climate control). But its miserable as a profit center, because you can't easily regulate the rate of power generation to gouge the market during periods of relatively high demand. Nuclear has enormous up-front costs and a long payoff window. It can take over a decade to break even on operation, assuming you're operating at market rates.

By contrast, natural gas generators are perfect for profit-maximzing. Turning the electric generation on or off is not much more difficult than operating a gas stove. You can form a cartel with your friends, then wait for electric price-demand to peak, and command thousands of dollars a MWh to fill the sudden acute need for electricity. Natural gas plants can pay for themselves in a matter of months, under ideal conditions.

So I wouldn't say the problem is that we don't know their cost-efficiency. I'd say the problem is that we do know. And for consumer electricity, nuclear doesn't make investment sense. But for internally consumed electricity on the scale of industrial data centers, it is exactly what a profit-motivated power consumer wants.

[-] AA5B@lemmy.world 3 points 14 hours ago

Plus time. My perspective was that building a new nuclear power industry and any significant number of reactors would take too long: we need to have fixed climate change in less time.

So seven “small” reactors over the next eleven years ….. faster than I expected but still takes decades to make a noticeable difference.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 points 13 hours ago

So seven “small” reactors over the next eleven years ……

Is more than we've built in the last 40. And, assuming energy demands continue to accelerate, I doubt they'll be the last seven reactors these companies construct.

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[-] lulztard@reddthat.com 140 points 21 hours ago
[-] IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works 18 points 21 hours ago

Businesses generating their own power is not anything new. The big auto manufacturers used to do it back in the day, and if you scale down the concept, every windmill (the grain grinding kind) and waterwheel built and operated for profit is the same thing. I'm just happy that Google is seemingly having their own built, instead of getting taxpayers to build it for them.

[-] tburkhol@lemmy.world 15 points 20 hours ago

Yeah, if this is what it takes to get new design nuclear facilities in the US, then I'm counting it a win, but I won't count it either way until the watts come out. Who knows: if they run ok, an actual power company might even try one.

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[-] Mandy@sh.itjust.works 46 points 18 hours ago

Cyberpunk dystopias weren't supposed to be guidelines dammit

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml 42 points 19 hours ago

So not replacing current energy, but adding onto it. Just like how we didn't replace fossil fuels with the solar and wind unprecedented advancements the last 30 years but only added more energy consumption on top of that...cool

[-] EldritchFeminity 27 points 19 hours ago

The other side of the coin is that AI currently uses more power than is produced by all renewables across the globe annually. So at least they'll be offsetting that, which would be a net positive.

And it seems like Google's funding will help advance safer and more modern nuclear plant designs, which is another win that could lead to replacing coal plants in many countries with small scale reactors that don't run on uranium.

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml 6 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

Yes it's obviously better than using fossil fuels, nobody's arguing that. What I'm talking about is the direction the global economy and the people making the decisions are taking.

No matter how much nuclear energy you use, you are still putting a lot of additional strain on the environment. It's not just the CO2 emissions that matter, that's just one of the problems. It's the increase in extracted materials for data centers, reactors and nuclear fuel, which causes the destruction of multiple ecosystems and the contamination of waters and soil from the pollutants produced(even radioactive waste in the uranium case).

It's also that Google could have been taxed more(I'm sure they can take it) and the money the government gained could be directed to investments on nuclear plants that would actually replace fossil fuels instead of adding energy demands on top of them. Because the fact of the matter is that in 2024 we categorically cannot be talking about not increasing fossil fuel consumption, we have to be talking about how to reduce emissions drastically every single year and why we are already tragically behind on that regard.

[-] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 15 points 18 hours ago

And it seems like Google's funding will help advance safer and more modern nuclear plant designs

Hopefully.

But the cynic in me is always concerned when shareholder owned companies are operating something that has the potential to go very wrong very quickly if/when they cut too many corners in the pursuit of that extra 0.5% of profit.

[-] Fondots@lemmy.world 7 points 18 hours ago

For what it's worth, many, maybe most (sorry, can't be bothered to look up the stats right now) nuclear plants in the US are already owned by some publicly traded company beholden to its shareholders who expect it to turn an ever increasing profit for them.

Not that it gives me the warm-fuzzies that that's the case, but it's not quite as big of a departure from the current situation as you're making it out to be.

[-] WldFyre@lemm.ee 4 points 14 hours ago

It's almost like our population has continued to increase for the last 30 years

[-] sweetpotato@lemmy.ml 3 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

It's almost like you have no clue what you are talking about lol. The global population growth for the last 30 years is 50%, while the global GDP growth is 500%. Not only that but the wealth inequality in the world has been steadily rising for the last 60 years. In the US alone (that we have data on) the wealth of the bottom 80% has been roughly stagnant since the 1990s while that of the top 1% has skyrocketed - it's basically them that have absorbed this economic growth profit.

So yeah, you got a lot of confidence in things you clearly don't know about.

[-] WldFyre@lemm.ee 3 points 2 hours ago

You weren't talking about wealth, you said that our energy consumption continued to rise.

[-] ownsauce@lemmy.world 56 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

The article mentions Kairos Power but doesn't mention that their reactors in development are molten-salt cooled. While they'll still use Uranium, its a great step in the right direction for safer nuclear power.

If development continues on this path with thorium molten-salt fueled and cooled reactors, we could see safe and commercially viable nuclear (thorium) energy within our lifetimes.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-power-station-gobi/104304468

To my layman's knowledge, using thorium molten-salt instead of uranium means the reactor can be designed in a way where it can't melt down like Chernobyl or Fukushima.

Edit: The other implication of not using uranium is that the leftover material is harder to make in to bombs, so the technology around molten-salt thorium reactors could be spread to current non-nuclear states to meet their energy needs and reduce reliance on coal plants around the planet.

[-] xavier666@lemm.ee 2 points 5 hours ago

The meltdown that happened in Chernobyl happened because of mismanagement. Yes, there were design flaws in the system, but lots of rules had to be broken before the design flaws were triggered.

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[-] IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 23 points 18 hours ago

I'll be amazed if this ever comes to fruition.

Generally speaking renewables + storage are the cheapest way of generating non-polluting power. After that there's nuclear power and it's much, much more expensive:

After that, and even more expensive are SMRs. Also, they don't actually exist yet as a means of generating power.

From the article, "For example, it has already received the green light from the U.S. Nuclear Registry Commission (the first one to do so) to build its Hermes non-powered demonstrator reactor in Tennessee. Although it still doesn’t have nuclear fuel on-site, this is a major step in its design process, allowing the company to see its system in real life and learn more about its deployment and operation."

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 11 points 17 hours ago

Generally speaking renewables + storage are the cheapest way of generating non-polluting power.

At variable scale, based on time of year and weather. Nuclear is much better for base-load, particularly at the scale of GWs. You know exactly how much electricity you're going to get 24/7, and the fuel costs aren't exposed to a market that can vary by 150-300% annually.

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[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 6 points 15 hours ago

Those are the people that would sell your soul to the devil.

[-] vxx@lemmy.world 9 points 18 hours ago

Will energy prices become negative when the AI bubble bursts?

[-] xnx@slrpnk.net 8 points 18 hours ago

So um. What happens when the white supremacists attacking FEMA and electrical grids starts attacking these nuclear reactors?

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[-] TimLovesTech@badatbeing.social 11 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

Growing from a broad research effort at U.S. universities and national laboratories, Kairos Power was founded to accelerate the development of an innovative nuclear technology ...

Kairos Power is focused on reducing technical risk through a novel approach to test iteration often lacking in the nuclear space. Our schedule is driven by the goal of a U.S. demonstration plant before 2030 and a rapid deployment thereafter. The challenge is great, but so too is the opportunity.

So basically academics finding people to fund a large scale lab experiment, they want to get working by 2030. It sounds like they sold Google on an idea (for funding) and now have to move their idea from the lab to the real world. It does sound safer than water cooled plants of old at least.

[-] pandapoo@sh.itjust.works 7 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

This is good news, relatively speaking.

SMR technology is one of the most promising pieces of technological development in the nuclear power space.

Standardized factory production and completely sealed, so refueling is only at the factory, never on-site. Their also, small, but scalable depending on the needs of each site.

I'm not sure of the design this company is using, but I'm assuming they're leveraging a fail safe reactor, as in, it requires properly running systems to generate fission, but if those systems fail, the fission process stops. There are no secondary systems that have to kick in, it's a simple as either it's running properly, or it can't run it all.

As opposed to systems like Chernobyl, or 3 Mile Island, that required separate active safety systems to guard against catastrophic failures. But if those failed, they're backups failed, etc., well, meltdown.

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this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
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