“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”
Labour and the Tories are not the same. The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Labour and the Tories are not the same
No, they're not. But that doesn't make them good. Less bad, perhaps, but good is a stretch.
The purpose of the narrative that they are is to foster and maintain voter apathy.
Voters are apathetic because they rarely (if ever) get to vote for something, usually it's voting to stop something/somebody else.
I agree that voting these days seems to be about “holding one’s nose” and picking the party most likely to stop something.
I blame FPTP.
At the moment, if you’re right-leaning there’s essentially just one party of note but if you’re left-leaning you’ve got some choices.
With PR, I believe more people would be able to just vote for what they want to see.
@C4d Only if people fail to see that there are multiple narratives, which include telling Labour I require they change under threat of no vote. They like others know not of my intention, the cost to them is clear, a lost vote, which is what they require. They earn my vote, they work for it. Hopefully ppl who are dissatisfied will see that another way exists and instead demand better, not to succumb to their own apathetic thought processes.
I think this argument (and your voting “power”, or at least your ability to directly influence the direction of a political party) would work better in a PR rather than FPTP system.
At the moment, losing your vote may or may not cost anyone anything if you’re among a demographic that consistently votes one way or the other.
If you had time on your hands, you could join the local representation of the party of your choice and begin to influence it that way. Unfortunately, not all demographic groups have the luxury of free time.
This is a good summary of Labour's actual policy positions, which are very different from your characterisation of them. You obviously have the right to vote for whoever you want to, for whatever reasons, but it's better to root your behaviour in reality, not rhetoric.
Thank you! It's actually worrying how much people seem to be basing their idea of what party policy will be on soundbites they've heard.
This country is in dire need of some political literacy. Thinking that the Tories and Lib Dems are somehow better on LGBQT issues than Labour would be hilarious if it wasn't a damning indictment of the intelligence of British voters.
Would you be able to unlock the article for us by any chance? 🙏
Search for it on archive.is
If you're on Firefox you can add a filter for paywalls to uBlock Origin.
Will do thanks!
@frankPodmore Unfortunately the pay wall prevents others from seeing this. I've read the entire article via the link given and it doesn't address several of my points, so I'm not clear which policy positions you're referring to.
In fact the opening paragraph agrees with me:
"It has been said that in sidelining the Labour party’s Corbynite left wing and manoeuvring it towards the centre, Sir Keir Starmer has made the UK opposition barely distinguishable in tone from the governing Conservatives."
No, it doesn't agree with you. Really basic reading comprehension error, there. It says people have said that, not that it is true. It spends the following 600 words demolishing that case.
Paywalls are easily circumvented. This isn't a good excuse.
For the uninitiated; Copy the article address and paste it into the search bar on archive.is. There are multiple paywall bypass methods, this is just one.
You don't vote FOR a party in a first past the post system. You tactivally vote against.
@Garfvynneve What I tell them I'm planning to do doesn't have to match with what I'll actually do.
We all can do this to demand better.
The Torys thank you for your abstention, and look forward to enacting policies which enrich themselves at your expense.
@Overzeetop That's another way of accusing me of being a Tory enabler. The point being as I have said elsewhere, is that what I tell labour I will do and what I do, are not their or anyone else's concern.
In the meantime I can lobby for policy change in any way I see fit, as can anyone else, in a democracy as it currently stands.
It isn't a simple dichotomy, despite FPTP.
Can you vote tactically for Lib Dem or Greens without risking more votes going to the Tories?
Fuck the Lib Dems, even tactically.
Mate, we're under a first past the post system, tactical voting matters to get the most damaging political force, i.e. the Tories, out of power and by a significant majority.
Anything remotely left of the Tories is better, even if it is Centre Centre Centre calling itself Left Labour.
You students tried that in 2015 and got Megagiga Tory and in 2016 we left the EU. In 2017 and 2019 when the Lib Dems campaigned to stop Brexit and rejoin it was "they took rrrrr students loans!". 🙄
So yes, fuck them. Oh and whilst we're at it let's also hand power to two parties that will keep us out of the EU because they are scared of their voter base. Good job 👍.
I'm not a student, but let me ask you this as a supposed predecessor, why didn't you ensure younger generations didn't have to worry about politicians lying without consequence?
Oh and don't forget the Lib Dems are partially responsible for this mess. It may surprise you but I'm old enough to remember that. They're an untrustworthy party and no one owes them a vote because some person on the Internet wants to whitewash their recent history and guilt trip us into supporting them.
Trust and good will for the Lib Dems was destroyed in 2010, when they jumped into a coalition government with the Tories for the tiniest sniff of power, despite their manifesto being closer to Labour’s on paper, backtracking on many of their policies and outright failing on others.
Tactically speaking, you can vote for the party you want to win only if you are absolutely certain that a) the tories have such a strong majority there isn’t a chance of anyone else getting in; b) some other party has such a majority there isn’t a chance of the Tories getting in. Otherwise you vote for the non-Tory party (or party that will not ally with the Tories) that is most likely to make it in your area.
I still vote tactically because there have historically been some close results where I live, but I’m sick of voting for parties I don’t want to win. I decided to become a member of the political party that I felt I was in most in line with, despite the fact I rarely vote for them. Small gesture, I know.
As far as I'm concerned, the worst case scenario (by a very large margin) is another Tory government. I'll be doing everything I can this side of campaigning for Labour (my MP is Labour and he's alright, my local councillors are also Labour and active and all the ball, but I can't bring myself to actual promote a party who's policies I struggle to endorse). So that's mainly sending out tactical voting information and offering lifts to the polling stations.
@Emperor I agree, Tory is worst. I don't have to let a not good enough Labour think they are good enough.
Recall I *told* Labour they lost my vote, that doesn't mean I can't exercise my vote in any way that effectively gets the Tories out, which includes actually voting for Labour.
Same. Their acceptance of current Tory actions like not revoking new oil and gas licenses and child benefit cap. Also watering down their own environmental policy. These things in our current situation are inexcusable.
They pander to Tory voters, bigots, and stay on the side of big business and the media.
The Greens have my vote.
UK Labour are too Tory for me.
Absolutely right.
It doesn't matter who you vote for now. I don't think it ever has (except perhaps in 1945). Social change in this country happens outside parliamentary politics. One of the big lies that we've allowed to become accepted is that changes to society happen as a result of MPs debating in parliament. They don't.
Westminster politics is an entertainment used to distract us from taking action .
The Overton Window has shifted so far to the right, any “more progressive” party that has a chance of getting into power kinda has to play to the crowd. It’ll take time for it to shift back to a more “familiar” (centre) left.
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