753
marx rule (lemmy.blahaj.zone)
submitted 1 year ago by Fiat126 to c/196
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[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 51 points 1 year ago
[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago

ha, I haven't heard this before. thanks.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 35 points 1 year ago

To be clear, Marx was anti-ideology, it didn't mean he was against his own framework of analysis nor that "Marxists" are going against Marx by referring to themselves as such, it's just a funny anecdote.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago

sounds like he was against how the French marxists were employing "Marxism" from his letter.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 20 points 1 year ago

Yes, they failed to understand the Base and Superstructure having the ability to impact each other.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

how did the French Marxists not understand that people affect culture and culture affects people?

those elements seem very difficult to even theoretically disassociate.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago

Not people, the Mode of Production. Capitalism projects cultute that supports it, like Liberalism, but the French "Marxists" didn't loop that back to Liberalism influencing Capitalism, and then that newly influenced Capitalism projecting new forms of Liberalism. This is why it develops in "spirals," dialectically.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

not recognizing that the means of production affects culture and culture affects the means of production seems almost as improbable as not understanding people affect culture.

do you mean they just didn't understand it using the terms that marx specifically set out in his treatise?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago

I saw a review of Paul Barth's book [Die Geschichtsphilosophie Hegels und der Hegelianer bis auf Marx und Hartmann] by that bird of ill omen, Moritz Wirth, in the Vienna Deutsche Worte, and this book itself, as well. I will have a look at it, but I must say that if "little Moritz" is right when he quotes Barth as stating that the sole example of the dependence of philosophy, etc., on the material conditions of existence which he can find in all Marx's works is that Descartes declares animals to the machines, then I am sorry for the man who can write such a thing. And if this man has not yet discovered that while the material mode of existence is the primum agens [primary agent, prime cause] this does not preclude the ideological spheres from reacting upon it in their turn, though with a secondary effect, he cannot possibly have understood the subject he is writing about. However, as I said, all this is secondhand and little Moritz is a dangerous friend. The materialist conception of history has a lot of them nowadays, to whom it serves as an excuse for not studying history. Just as Marx used to say, commenting on the French "Marxists" of the late [18]70s: "All I know is that I am not a Marxist."

The Base, ie the Mode of Production, is the primary mover. Capitalism is the creator of Liberalism, not the other way around. However, upon acknowledging this, some people fail to "close the loop," seeing the Superstructure, ie culture, merely as a "projection" from the Base, a constant emittance, rather than 2 components that develop each other dialectically, in spirals.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

i don't think engels truly believes that moritz doesn't understand the mutually independent relationship of culture and the means of production, it sounds like engles just doesn't approve of moritz's philosophical priorities.

"I am sorry for the man who can write such a thing. And if this man has not yet discovered..."

is a leisurely needling of a disagreeable perspective rather than some certainty that moritz doesn't grasp the relationship between the base and its super structure.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

I think it's more a consequence of this being an out of context snippet.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

he contextualizes his thoughts well over several paragraphs, providing specific reasons and suppositions for his arguments.

What other context could be provided that would somehow make it clear engles truly doesn't believe that another scholar is missing a fundamental logical connection?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

It's specifically a conversation surrounding misunderstandings of Dialectical Materialism, the example given being one such example.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

are you a philosophy major or professional yourself? you seem very knowledgeable on the subject.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

Nah, I'm just a Communist, I've read a good deal of Marx and the gang.

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

only in so far as engels is unwilling to consider alternate perspectives.

as I supposed earlier, his criticism sounds more like he's trying to academically armbar moritz's interpretation rather than suggest moritz doesn't actually understand the base and superprojection relationship.

he just understands it and discusses it in a way engels doesn't approve of.

that's how engels is coming off, anyway.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

That's a fair interpretation, but it's also worth noting that Materialism in its Dialectical form was very new, ie created by Marx. There was a ton of misunderstanding surrounding his theories (which remains today).

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

ha, nothing truer these days.

[-] rain_worl@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

GOD THE LEMMERS NOT UNDERSTANDING CREATIVE COMMONS LICENSES
DO NOT JUST USE IMAGES FROM THE INTERNET HOWEVER YOU LIKE

[-] TheCoolerMia 11 points 1 year ago
[-] reallykindasorta@slrpnk.net 7 points 1 year ago

muh copyright law

[-] rain_worl@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

according to law, you need explicit permission to use photos you found on the internet

[-] Mr_Blott@feddit.uk 26 points 1 year ago

Philomena Cunk, the thinking man's Mandy

[-] Zoomboingding@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Nomative determanism

[-] Siethron@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

He was a big fan of Groucho

[-] VaalaVasaVarde@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 year ago

Zeppo: Socialism, get your tutsi fruitsi socialism...

[-] lugal@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 year ago
[-] NickwithaC@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago
this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2024
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