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submitted 10 months ago by x4740N@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

For example workplace harrasment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored because the victim is male but if it where to happen to a woman by a male the male would be fired

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[-] TheBananaKing@lemmy.world 212 points 10 months ago

Cut bits of a girl baby's genitals: jail.

Cut bits off a boy baby's genitals: An occasion for a fucking party.

[-] VelvetStorm@lemmy.world 24 points 10 months ago

And old men can suck on the wound.

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[-] Technus@lemmy.zip 202 points 10 months ago

As a guy who's trying dating again, there's something that keeps coming up that kinda bugs me: talking to women who just put in the bare minimum of effort, expect me to carry the conversation and make all the first moves.

I don't give two shits about traditional gender roles and I'm all about subverting them. However, I think if you're in the same boat but still wanna call yourself a "passenger princess" and expect the guy to do everything, you're kind of a hypocrite.

[-] TonyOstrich@lemmy.world 66 points 10 months ago

Just want to let you know that you aren't alone. I have talked to a number of women who advocate for things like DEI and acceptance (which is something I also believe quite strongly in) but often default to preferring more traditional gender norms in dating. When pressed on the issue (not like I'm interrogating them just through normal conversations and getting to know them) they will inevitably say that it is ultimately "just their preference".

What I find so odd about that "preference" is if a man behaves in accordance with the traditional/societal gender norms in the beginning of the courting process, why is it surprising that they do the same thing later in the relationship when it comes to sharing emotional labor or various types of household chores?

I know the below is taking it to a bit of an extreme example but that behavior and "preference" often reminds me the sentiment "the only moral abortion is my abortion". Like I get it, there are a lot of shitty people out there who have no interest in putting in the effort, and they absolutely are not worth the time and effort, but when you do meet someone who is willing to put in that effort, it isn't really fair to treat them like all those other people.

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[-] Ifera@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago

Same, I am bi, and that is the reason I stopped trying to date women, or anyone who behaves like that for good measure, because some guys try to pull that same stunt.

I want a partner who is as interested and as into dating me as I am into dating them, someone who puts the time in and makes an effort, makes me and my time feel valued, and is also willing to to invest themselves and their time on me, and I don't know if I was just unlucky, but I never found a woman who was into that. But then again, I pretty much only dated teens and women in their early 20s, as I liked dating people on my own age group and it was at those ages that I was actively dating women.

But from an outsider's perspective, now on my late 30s, the straight dating market looks awful, I think I'll stick with men.

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[-] Ekybio@lemmy.world 117 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Men are often expected to swallow their emotions and just "function", while women are allowed and even encouraged to display them openly

[-] insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 68 points 10 months ago

That's a funny one because men are celebrated for suppressing emotions and women are penalisd for showing them.

[-] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 23 points 10 months ago

Yeah the patriarchy is really just the ruling class using us to suppress each other.

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[-] Nefara@lemmy.world 17 points 10 months ago

Women absolutely are penalized for showing emotion. Socially between friends there is a lot better support, and that is probably what you are thinking of. In a workplace environment though, there can be serious consequences for expressing anything other than congeniality. If you're socially withdrawn you're an ice queen, if you get angry (no matter how justifiable) you're a bitch or a dragon lady. If you're stressed and not perfectly composed you're weak "unable to handle the pressure". I get that men are subject to the same kind of judgments but there seems to be more leeway.

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[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 102 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Well, for one, the ability to freely talk about issues specific to their gender without judgement by ~20% of the population

[-] Five@slrpnk.net 25 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

We had to shutter !twoxchromosomes@slrpnk.net because of persistent and vocal judgement by a large population of Lemmy users, many from Lemmy.World. So no, talking about issues specific to their gender is definitely not a double standard where men get the short end of the stick.

This is why you get judged. Because you so nakedly put on display how much ignorance and little empathy you have for women's issues.

!mensliberation@lemmy.ca exists specifically for men who understand their issues in society are intersectional with women's issues, and that solving them requires uniting to end patriarchy. Any discussion outside of that framing deserves the assumption that it's a misogynist men's pity party.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 33 points 10 months ago

Why is it okay for twoX to be devoted to women's issues and actively discourage comparing them to men's issues, but men can't have an analogous space?

Fwiw, if your twoX was different from previous similarly-named communities then I am sorry it closed.

[-] Five@slrpnk.net 20 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I think you misunderstood me. I do think men should have an analogous space. I support !mensliberation@lemmy.ca 100%.

If you didn't misunderstand me, men don't need a space specifically for comparing their issues negatively against women's issues. That space is everywhere and anywhere, as evidenced by this discussion occurring in !asklemmy@lemmy.world and collecting overwhelmingly positive upvotes.

[-] Clent@lemmy.world 21 points 10 months ago

Your comments here are an example of double standard.

You are asking for men issues to stay in groups specific to that issue. Anyone who did the same for questions about women would be called a misogynist.

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[-] cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 18 points 10 months ago

I was also confused by the amount of downvotes

[-] Varyk@sh.itjust.works 79 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

doing oppositely gendered activities.

my girlfriend can change the oil in her car and lifts weights?

cool. healthy.

i can sew my own clothes and bake?

Weird. Creepy.

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[-] Technus@lemmy.zip 75 points 10 months ago

Here's another thing that I was just reminded of in this very thread, lmfao:

Men are expected to accept unsolicited advice at face value when they want to vent, because we're supposed to be the ones with all the answers, and if a man is complaining about a problem, then he's obviously just missing the answer.

This actually blew up my last relationship, right at the beginning of the pandemic, when my girlfriend at the time was stressed from being laid off and we weren't able to see each other due to the isolation orders.

She would try to vent to me about her problems, looking for support in a time of emotional vulnerability, and I, an inexperienced idiot just trying to be helpful, would suggest solutions that I thought she hadn't considered. If you can't guess exactly how that went, you've almost certainly never been in a serious relationship.

What made it worse is she would then say to stop mansplaining, which made me defensive because I thought she was tacitly accusing me of being intentionally misogynistic when I was honestly just trying to be helpful. At the time, I figured I just needed to adjust my approach a little bit, not completely change course. Unsurprisingly, that didn't work.

It was only in hindsight, some time after she had dumped my dumb ass, and I had blocked and deleted her number, that I was complaining to my friends and getting the exact same kind of thing back that I realized, "oh wow, I get it now, that is actually really fucking annoying and invalidating."

It was also around this time, while discussing my experiences with friends who have been diagnosed, that I realized that I might have ADHD. So that definitely hadn't helped.

In the extremely unlikely event you're reading this, K, I'm sorry. I figured out what I did wrong, just a little too late.

[-] iiGxC@slrpnk.net 53 points 10 months ago

It's not entirely on you. Accusing you of mansplaining is not cool, she should've just said something like "i'm sharing this because I'm looking for emotional support, not solutions, so please stop trying to solve my problems when I'm just venting".

In a sense, how people react to having problems shared with them is a cultural difference, neither is right or wrong but they can be jarring and confusing when you're used to one culture but interact with a different one. But it's not fair to just assume the other culture is acting in bad faith

[-] ChlkDstTtr@lemmy.world 28 points 10 months ago

With my brother I’ve started asking “are you looking for advice or do you just want someone to vent to?”. I think most people can do better playing both roles.

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[-] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 74 points 10 months ago

Domestic violence against men is usually ignored or blamed on the victim.

[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 59 points 10 months ago

Clothes in general, I could borrow my husband's shirt and nobody would bat an eye but I'd he borrowed mine (he can't because I'm smaller, but assuming we were the same size-ish) would look strange.

I don't think groping is gonna be ignored in any workplace, in any direction.

[-] TheGalacticVoid@lemm.ee 30 points 10 months ago

I've read enough accounts from both men and women to know that sexual harassment is not taken seriously at many places.

[-] Feathercrown@lemmy.world 23 points 10 months ago

In some workplaces it's even ignored in both directions. At last, true gender equality! /s

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[-] MellowYellow13@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago

Huh? Groping is ignored much of the time if done by a woman to a man

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[-] RagnarokOnline@programming.dev 54 points 10 months ago

In dating or marriage: If a female partner criticizes on her male’s choice of outfit, it’s totally normal. If a male criticizes the choice of outfit of his female partner… a fight is imminent.

[-] Summzashi@lemmy.one 32 points 10 months ago

Sounds like an unhealthy relationship to me instead of a double standard but whatever.

[-] iiGxC@slrpnk.net 19 points 10 months ago

The whole question of double standards is in a sense, asking about common unhealthy traits

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[-] iiGxC@slrpnk.net 32 points 10 months ago

Insane expectations being placed on women around beauty and appearance, and the resulting insecurities that creates, play a big role in this

[-] JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee 46 points 10 months ago

This comes from my own observations, and might not be a popular take, but men are often encouraged or celebrated for having multiple partners and not using protection.

This attitude puts men(especially young men) at risk for STI's, some of which can affect fertility even if a course of antibiotics will take care of it. Others don't have cures yet, or are not as easy to treat like herpes, the different hepatitis strains, HIV, genital warts ect.

This attitude towards sex for men puts their health at risk and their partners.

The amount of times I've seen dudes encourage each other to not use condoms is kinda distressing. I don't think guys are being educated on how a condom should fit and how to find the right size. They shouldn't be uncomfortable. If they are try a different kind.

Women often have to try different birth control pills until they find one with minimal side effects. Try different condoms until you find the right ones for you. It's to protect your dick from diseases, not just to stop pregnancy.

Take care of yourselves guys. Your health is important.

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[-] SeattleRain@lemmy.world 45 points 10 months ago

Being held culpable for the brutality some powerful men wield against women because of the "patriarchy". But also being at fault when women with power exploit or abuse men.

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[-] protist@mander.xyz 42 points 10 months ago

"For example workplace harassment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored"

This is absolutely not a double standard in society in most workplaces. I've never encountered an HR department that wouldn't take this extremely seriously. I'm not saying those HR depts don't exist, but they're certainly not the norm

[-] Meltrax@lemmy.world 16 points 10 months ago

I'm a pretty built dude and my coworkers bring it up constantly. Like my appearance is a regular topic of conversation. It's not unflattering or rude but if it were a woman they were talking about everyone would think it was super weird to have, for example, the CEO commenting on some woman's appearance all the time, even to say something positive.

[-] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 16 points 10 months ago

Agreed. Unless you live outside the first world, HR will intervene because they don't want you to sue the company, regardless of your gender.

[-] Reyali@lemm.ee 15 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

HR response isn’t the only thing though. A number of years ago, my (F) partner (M) was sexually harassed by his female boss. He didn’t report it to HR, but he did sometimes bring it up around his friends. He had multiple people who base a lot of their identity on their feminism/acceptance/equality views tell him it wasn’t possible for him to be a victim of sexual harassment.

And then if he brought it up around more normie people, especially guys, the most frequent first question was, “Is she hot?”

The responses he got from so many people were part of why he never took it to HR. The other part was that she was smart enough to never do it in writing, so it would have been he-said-she-said. It was just easier to get a new job.

[-] hesusingthespiritbomb@lemmy.world 41 points 10 months ago

So one thing I noticed is that women betraying their partner has become extremely normalized

  • Every "ethical non monogamous" relationship I've seen IRL is just a woman pressuring their long term monogamous partner into a situation where she has multiple partners and she's struggling
  • "Monkey Branching", where a woman starts dropping hints at one guy while still seeing another in hopes of making a seamless transition, is pretty accepted. Emotional affairs are only a thing for men apparently
  • While it's always been acceptable to leave a guy if he can't "provide" for you, it's really fucking stupid in the context of modern feminism
  • Women who use OLD are often encouraged to have a "roster" of men, who they form a well beyond casual connection to.
  • There's a large number of 30+ year old women breaking up with their long term partners to "find themselves". I put that in quotations because this usually just involves a ton of casual sex. It's basically the modern day equivalent of a guy leaving his wife for the secretary
  • There are a million different love triangles on TV. They are almost all two guys and a woman who is disrespectful of both. The guys get mad at each other and the women's behavior is not portrayed as toxic.
  • Like 80 percent of holiday movies involve a woman leaving her fiance for a man she just met. This is always seen as romantic, instead of psychotic.

In addition to all that, women are extremely reluctant to criticize other women. This stands even when another woman is behaving in an almost objectively toxic way. I moved post covid. The first year I witnessed a fuckton of toxic behavior, but when I tried to point it out I would get dirty glances from women. The second year there I ended up getting close to other women in those conversations who took it upon themselves to tell me in a smaller setting that they actually agreed with me, but they didn't want to appear unsupportive.

Whatever the intention there, the mentality enabled a subset of women to be shitty and probably convinced a lot of men that such behavior was something most women were okay with.

[-] RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 31 points 10 months ago

Every single experience you mentioned I cannot relate to at all. It's really weird to read.

[-] TaterTurnipTulip@lemmy.world 26 points 10 months ago

It sounds like you haven't seen any healthy ethnically non-monogamous relationships. That's a shame. As a part of one, I've seen several others as well. It can work, if it's done for the right reasons and if all partners respect each other.

[-] SpoopyKing@lemmy.sdf.org 25 points 10 months ago

I know it's a typo but I'm cracking up at

ethnically non-monogamous

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[-] nondescripthandle@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 10 months ago

Everyone says to talk about your problems but the second you do, you're told that women either have it worse or how they have some worse problem. I've largely stopped talking about my problems because I'm never heard, just talked past or worse, made out to be the problem. The older I get the more reinforced my silence is because evey time I open up it's used against me and this is just normal.

Meanwhile I'm expected to play therapist when someone else talks about their problems and I have to stop my autistic ass from telling them I really don't want to hear about you. I can't even get the silence I give returned to me.

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[-] Meltrax@lemmy.world 33 points 10 months ago

If you're a dude and your older female boss forces you to have sex with her under threat of losing your job, everyone just says "that's awesome what's the problem?".

[-] Ragnarok314159@sopuli.xyz 43 points 10 months ago

I had a professor do this to me. Was an adult going to night school, in my last year. She was about ten years older than me and we hit it off in a way I assumed was a professional student/teacher relationship. Had this with other professors as well.

She told me to meet her at a hotel once, thought she was joking and when I didn’t show was furious. Told her it just seemed odd, and she told me she is getting another one this weekend and not to worry about it, but if I didn’t show there would be consequences.

Through a lot of double speak she let me know if it didn’t happen, there would be no graduation for me. Not knowing what to do, bought a pack of condoms and showed up to the hotel. “No, we aren’t using those”. And that was several of my weekends until graduation. There was zero possibility of saying no, and no one to complain to. I can tell the story online and that’s about it.

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[-] Clbull@lemmy.world 29 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Some good examples:

  • Fat acceptance and body positivity. Obesity is glorified (even fetishized) when it's a woman, whereas obese men are shunned. Have you noticed that nobody in the fat acceptance movement is vouching for the 300lb basement dwellers?

  • Older ladies who date younger guys are called cougars, whereas if you flip the gender roles, an older man dating a younger lady half his age is going to be labelled a pedophile, even if she's of-age. Just look at at the anger surrounding Tobey Maguire (48 years old) dating a 20 year old actress. There are people who legitimately think men like him should be hunted for sport.

  • The amount of effort you have to put into your dating profile. Women have the opposite problem of being inundated with matches even with minimal effort.

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[-] MellowYellow13@lemmy.world 23 points 10 months ago

Basically everything women cry about men doing to them. If it is done to a man by women it is ignored or considered not real or never happened or okay and normalized as you put it.

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this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
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