Both egoism and altruism are human nature. We are capable of both (for the most part). Currently, we have a socioeconomic system that rewards and encourages primarily the former. Why not try it the other way and see where that brings us?
I'd like to point out the viability of cooperatives to accomplish this. A co-op is defined by the seven Rochdale Principles. Among those is open and voluntary membership, democratic member control, cooperation among cooperatives, and concern for community.
Its a stateless form of socialism that gives workers ownership to the means of production and doesnt have to necessarily negate private ownership. They can simply be incentivized by the state similar to how tax breaks and subsidies currently work or by providing workers the framework for which to purchase a company in the case of failure (like after the 2008 financial crash - when competition, greed, and capitalism failed).
Why would they be incentivized by the state that exists to uphold capitalism? Read state and revolution.
I wonder how well a system would work where you get more money, the more you help people/help solve problems (with problems i mean like pollution or something)
I don't think money should be an incentive at all, in the long run.
It definitely would be nice if that were the case, but i think the best way to incentivice people is to reward them. Better yet make a competition out of it. Just gotta reward actions that benefit other people.
Like let people be millionaire's but to get there they need to help like ten thousand people or something
We should encourage that financially. I don't think communism is a viable solution tho
My response is always is it not human nature for many to be violent towards others and yet few would say that's ok. The answer is simple, humans are fundementally more then their base instincts and desires. If humanity were nothing more then animals then society as we know it would have never formed.
Based response, even though I wouldn't say I'm a communist, more social democratic
Exactly. Our ability to use language, create culture, abstract ideas and concepts and step outside of them are the ingredients that allow us to transcend our evolutionary instincts and urges, and that’s exactly what we should do when building a society and culture.
There is no such thing as human nature only human habit
Communism is against human nature.
Along with every social construct that we make including laws and traditions. We make these rules precisely to counter the human nature in an attempt to create a better society, though not all are by intentional design. What is good for an isolated sole single individual is very different for a whole society and a prosperous society benefits individuals to have different opportunities than a lone actor. For example, a society where you aren't constantly worried about theft allows you to engage in trade more freely and thus able to trade more. The act of limiting personal freedom (nature) to steal, in turn, allowed society to have an increase in ability to trade.
What is closer to human nature is going to be more easily accepted by humans. And free market is closer to nature than communism. That is why it was invented first and what has set place first. If communism is indeed what society as a whole feels is better for society, they will constantly shift towards it. Some may argue similar to Canada or Scandinavian countries. Though I wouldn't define what they're shifting to as communism because countries like Sweden, Denmark, etc. score higher than USA in economic freedom index (free market). But, that discussion would go off course from topic of what is true communism which has no end.
Last 2 panels of the OP's memes refer more greatly to individual actions rather than societal actions. I'm sure certain individuals will help and be charitable. Though as a whole would be obviously less than communism since certain definitions of communism would be a mathematical maximum of reduction of poor due to equalization.
The last two panels refer to structuring society based on the expectation that wealthy people will share, which is basically the trickle down argument.
That interpretation seems more like your own opinion rather than the opinion of those who actually say that. I see little causal relevance between charity and trickle down economics.
You have to think more impartially to understand why these two train of thoughts have little to no intersection. Do you know why these people you're characterizing are saying "people are generous"? Because like you said, greed is simultaneously said. If you get it, you'll see it's not about trickle down.
Additionally the general right wing argument for the structuring society around volunteer charity over forced social care is that volunteer format is enough from the view of the giver, not that they will get enough from the view of the receiver. If that happens to be nothing, they're saying so be it. If that happens to be a lot, that's great. The argument is also about having the option to choose where they help rather than a government body choosing it... Though I don't think individuals could possibly know though to choose well.
I am not making an argument for the right or left. I'm just fixing the polarized viewpoint of the other party.
What I'm saying is that regardless how you frame this, what it comes down in tangible terms is trickle down. The argument is that it's fine for the wealth to become concentrated with a small minority of the population because they will share it voluntarily. This is demonstrably not the case in practice.
(You are mixing economic systems with market systems - as if communism can't have free markets or that capitalism can't come up with a law that 99% of the profits must be shared as bonuses to all workers)
How do you know free market is closer to human nature (which isn't a thing)?
Especially when more than 99% of the time humans lived is socialist communes (ie communism).
(Not to mention most animals live in communistic systems, and none have free-markets.)
And especially when even in free markets vast majority of the people (workers) don't really participate in it directly.
Also humans with their blood thought and achieved that free market isn't a thing, that we have governments that regulate at minimum things that just cannot ever work in a free market.
Thats a bit like a mediaeval peasant saying its 'human nature' to want feudalism.
And a bit like saying revolutions and socioeconomic system changes arent in human nature.
Even the argument of human greediness isn't an argument for capitalism - the system decides what you are greedy for (capital in capitalism, land in feudalism, commune (respect) in communism, seashells in seashellsism).
In each -ism you can be greedy.
... wELL teCHniCAllY nO mArKEt iS aCTUallY frEe
I'm currently reading a book which argues that "most people, deep down, are actually pretty decent". It's really good, highly recommend to anyone. It's called "Human Kind" by Rutger Bregman
Game theorists in shambles
There are two arguments being combined here. The first half is regarding the free rider problem within a theoretical communist society. The second is regarding care of the less fortunate within a voluntaryist society. They are both valid arguments without proven answers outside of theory.
They're both invalid arguments with proven answers throughout history. The free rider problem hasn't existed in Communists states any more than in capitalist ones, meanwhile we know for a fact that trickle down economics does not work.
They’re both invalid arguments with proven answers throughout history. The free rider problem hasn’t existed in Communists states any more than in capitalist ones, meanwhile we know for a fact that trickle down economics does not work.
Your post isn't an answer to either argument nor has anything been "proven". Communism is a stateless society, and I can't think of a time that has existed before the birth of nations. The free rider problem is what happens in a communist society when those who decide not to contribute become a burden upon those who do. Trickle down economics has nothing to do with charitable giving within a voluntary market-driven society, but is a term used to describe stronger economic growth based on reduced tax burdens for the upper economic class.
Free rider problem is made up. Stateless classless societies have obviously existed throughout history. Every small tribal society is basically that. Meanwhile, the "voluntary" market-driven society is what liberal capitalism is. It doesn't work.
The free rider problem is most definitely not made up.
Stateless classless societies have obviously existed throughout history. Every small tribal society is basically that.
Every tribal society on earth exists within a State. As I wrote before, there have always been States after the birth of nations.
Meanwhile, the “voluntary” market-driven society is what liberal capitalism is. It doesn’t work.
There isn't currently a voluntary market society, since all societies also exist within States, States that are run by governments.
The two original arguments exist within a theoretical vacuum which is my point. Unless you have some kind of a priori argument that solves either one, you haven't provided actual "proof" of anything.
The free rider problem is most definitely not made up.
It is because real world societies have simple and well known mechanisms to deal with it.
Every tribal society on earth exists within a State. As I wrote before, there have always been States after the birth of nations.
It very much does not.
There isn’t currently a voluntary market society, since all societies also exist within States, States that are run by governments.
Wait till you find out how and why states form.
The two original arguments exist within a theoretical vacuum which is my point. Unless you have some kind of a priori argument that solves either one, you haven’t provided actual “proof” of anything.
Actually, it's your arguments that exist in a theoretical vacuum utterly divorced from the real world.
Ok, you're now writing things that have no connection whatsoever to the points presented. There is a good discussion to be had around the two original arguments as they've been covered by philosophers and economists for years, but it appears you are not the one to have that discussion with.
What I wrote directly relates to the points presented, but if you don't understand how that's fine. It appears you are not the one to have that discussion with.
Sure. Also as an aside, votes are transparent on Lemmy
Free market and capitalism is much much less proven than living in communes (communism).
Even feudalism is a more proven system by that logic.
Don't you see the contradiction in your own meme? The clown says "we are born selfish" and then goes on to say "people are generous". This in itself is a massive contradiction.
Do you think that might have something to do with why he’s portrayed as a clown?
imagine lacking the brainpower to understand a 4 panel meme
I'm sure I'll find a guy with a box of 100 samples who will take my random box of tech scrap! Or I could pay him 5 quid and save the hassle.
