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submitted 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) by Mikina@programming.dev to c/programming@programming.dev

Hello!

When I was creating a CTF for a conference, I've finally got to learn about how blockchain and smart contracts actually works in practice, and the whole concept is simply brilliant. A quick introduction for those unfamiliar with it would be in this summary, but just to summarize how I basically understand it, blockchain is simply a VM that runs code (smart contracts) a both the code, and result of every execution of it is calculated by a bunch of users (so, mining is basically running a VM) and appended into the blockchain based on some kind of consensus and proof of work. This means that you get a single source of truth and history of every execution of a smart contract that is decentralized and you can rely on it.

But, almost every use of blockchain or smart contracts I have seen has pretty large issues either in sustainability in the long term, or in cases where you simply need some form of an authority to prevent and punish misuse. While I'm not really that much familiar with every use of blockchain so far, I will first list what I've already thought about or seen, and the main issues that I think are a deal-breaker for choosing blockchain for that kind of tasks. It's possible that some of the issues are wrong or have already been solved, so please correct me if I'm wrong - my knowledge of blockchain isn't really that in-depth.

First and the most common use is the one you are probably most aware of - cryptocurrencies. If I ignore the biggest and most unfortunate issue of cryptocurrencies turning into an investment-only product, with hugely volatile and inflated price that is not backed by any kind of real value (sure, you can pay with BTC, but it's slow, expensive and super volatile to be useful, so the only real use is to literally sell it to others for a profit - which also basically means you are scamming someone out of their money down the line), I see the following problems with using blockchain for currencies:

  • Longevity - The ledger size is already getting massive, only after a few year. It's not sustainable, and it will eventually be really hard to keep the whole ledger at a large enough number of places to not run into problems of integrity. It's growing exponentionally, and is at around 500Gb after around 10 years.
  • Gas cost - It's getting harder and harder to mine and confirm new transactions, which increases the cost while also making less people able to mine new transactions without being at a loss. This will only get worse, and eventually lead to the 50% problem (if someone controls 50%+ of mining nodes, he can confirm fake transactions or do whatever he wants with the blockchain) being a real issue.
  • Lack of moderation - This may be one of the more controversial issues, because it goes directly against the whole idea of cryptocurrencies, but is one of the biggest problems I see that are in the way of crypto being able to be considered for wider use. We live in a world where some people are dicks that are not afraid to steal and cheat, and something like a currency simply has to be moderatable. You need to be able to punish criminals, and take back what they have stolen. If someone doesn't pay their debts and owns me money, the government should be able to just take the money if they have them. If someone uses an account for scamming and stealing, it should be possible to freeze it.

The last issue will eventually show in most of the other uses of blockchain as well, and while I have included it, I'm still not sure how I feel bout it. In an ideal world, you would not have to deal with something like this. I would also really like to have an option to do my transactions privately, without anyone being able to profile my behavior and data, but such a system would have to allow for some safeguards against missuse to be widely adoptable. (Which is an interresting off-topic question - would it be possible to create a system that is private, but also has the possibility for trusted authorities to freeze accounts and force transactions?) And the more that I think about it, the more I'm certain that I'd rather have a centralized system where you can punish criminals and scammers, than a system where lives of people are regularly ruined by someone stealing all of their savings unpunished. But it is a thin line - I only say that because I live in a country that is all-right and I can trust my government - for now. But I definitely agree that such a private unmoderated option should exist - but can't be considered for widespread use, which I've heard some people say that "crypto will replace cash in a few years". And this is why it never will, IMO. But this discussion shouldn't be about whether this is a good opinion or not - but more about "what blockchain is a good tool for".

Next one are NFTs. I will just quickly gloss over them, because they are even bigger scam than crypto is. Ever heard someone say "Someone has copied and minted my NFT?". Well, it's a shame that there isn't some kind of centralized authority that could, you know, not allow them to do that.

Another use I've heard someone praise as "the future" was lending money. I'm not sure what were they talking about, but the whole point was that you can... Escrow an amount you are borrowing, and then borrow the same amount? It didn't make any sense, so I guess I'm missing something, but then again - we have the same issues as above, while also it being just a bizare idea - why simply not use the amount you already have? The person tried to explain it to me, but it just feels gimmicky. And if you escrow a lesser amount, you then have the same problem with moderation as above - nothing can force you to return the money (unless it is already escrowed, but then, why??)

So far, every use of blockchain I have heard about would be better done in a centralized fashion, especially as far as longevity is concerned. The growing ledger size and increasing gas cost, along with the 50% problem simply makes most of these kind of uses too impractical to work on a larger scale.

But I really like the concept and idea of smart contracts, and I'm sure there has to be some kind of use that is not as "revolutionary" or large scale. I'm just having hard time coming up with any.

I have only one - voting, and maybe transparent randomization (i.e lottery). Smart contracts are an amazing way to collect votes transparently but privately, since you can be sure that no-one can cheat, if you set it up properly. It's also something that doesn't suffer from the longevity problem, because it's more of a one-shot use of blockchain, rather than something ongoing - which also justifies the price.

(tl;dr feel free to start here:) Which is what I'm interested in - does any of you have similar ideas for use of smart contracts and blockchain, that would be practical in a daily live? Be it one-shot smart contracts for a small task, such as voting or random winner selection, maybe some kind of escrow. It doesn't have to be a "society changing system", or something revolutionary. A common small code snippets or apps that would solve the trust issue inherent to a centralized task is what I'm after - but have hard time coming up with.

And just a disclaimer - I don't plan on building anything and am not fishing for the next blockchain thing, I barely even understand it. I would just like to incorporate blockchain into my programming repertoire as a tool, because the concept feels so clever, but is also misused or misunderstood due to hype, but it has to have it's uses that are overshadowed by people jumping on the blockchain bandwagon without considering whether it's really the best tool for the job.

But is has to be a good tool for some kind of problems, right? And I would like to start a discussion about what would that be, without it being affected by the hype and reputation surrounding blockchain. I feel like that would be an interesting though exercise, and I'm sure we can come up with some interesting little uses here and there, without it being gimmicky but actually the best tool for the job.

Thank you!

EDIT: And I'd like to add that I never got into the blockchain hype, and my opinion on how it's used so far is mostly negative. If a product mentions blockchain, I usually just avoid it as a gimmick. But that's why I'm genuinely interested in this discussion - I don't judge a tool about how people misuse it.

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[-] arisunz 37 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

buying drugs and scamming people

oh, and throwing gasoline at an already burning planet

[-] gunnm@monero.town 6 points 2 years ago
[-] apd@programming.dev 6 points 2 years ago

Want to explain your rational?

[-] gunnm@monero.town 5 points 2 years ago

Buying drugs, scamming people is the same use case of FIAT.

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[-] csolisr@communities.azkware.net 36 points 2 years ago

Blockchains are only useful in cases where non-repudiability (the ability to prevent users from denying that an event happened) is more important than any other factor. And there are preciously few cases where this is the case, the vast majority being related to audit - tracking receipts, votes, certificates, or similar attestations in an environment where no single party can be trusted. Disclaimer, I've worked in the past in projects related to the aforementioned - fortunately all of them related to the field of audit.

[-] interolivary@beehaw.org 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Notabaly most of these use cases probably don't benefit from a public ledger though, in the sense that anyone with enough stake / hardware could be a validator. Exposes you to way too much uncertainty about whether validators will screw you over with Maximal Extractable Value tomfoolery, edit: and is obviously slow and very expensive compared to PoA

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[-] jmk1ng@programming.dev 24 points 2 years ago

Blockchain? Oh, hah, no no... none of us were ever hyping up a tech we didn't understand as the solution to literally any problem.

Say, have you heard about AI? It's a revolutionary technology that's the solution to any problem!

[-] Zyansheep@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

I mean, machine learning can theoretically approximate any computable function given enough time and resources...

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[-] armestam@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago

Git

Git is Blockchain and it's pretty much the only use of the tech I actually see make sense. Most other uses add too much expense where we could just used a trusted ledger. I know people are all about zero trust but the cost benefit of Blockchain doesn't pan out for almost anything. It's not hard to develop cheaper ways to trust an actor, such as laws. Which is how we create trust today. When's the last time your westernized bank stole money from you?

[-] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago

Git is not blockchain. Git is a distributed ledger. You can rewind a git commit if you know what you're doing. If fit were a blockchain, removing the last commit would corrupt the entire chain. Every transaction is part of building that trust.

Your conclusion of uses of blockchain is spot on though. I also feel it's extremely expensive and complicated when there are much cheaper and more efficient ways outside of it.

When did this become a thing where people started calling git a blockchain? Git is much older than blockchain. I don't see anyone giving Torvalds credit for inventing blockchain. Because he didn't. And git isn't blockchain. It's sort of useful as an illustration of how blockchain almost works, except it's much more efficient because it doesn't do all the things that blockchain requires.

[-] armestam@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago

Well, if you remove a commit in the chain it will disrupt the chain. It's a DAG where the next commit requires the previous commit to be unchanged. So Git does use essentially a cryptographic chain.

The thing is we don't care about guessing the next part of the chain, which is where the mining aspect of Blockchain comes into play. So Git does not include validation in it's process. But if someone does modify something in Git I assure you all of the people who have cloned that repository are able to validate a change happened.

Nobody credits Linus with it because signing things was never a novel idea. The part where you're mining the next hash is the interesting part of Blockchain that's not in Git. And that's also the wasteful silly part.

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[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 13 points 2 years ago

The only useful use case I've seen is for when you absolutely MUST be able to track historic data and ensure edits don't destroy the original. Blockchain "solves" this by never allowing saved data to be edited.

The only place I've seen it actually being used properly for that was within Brazil's medical vaccine tracking (ptbr article), which is what allowed them to confirm that Bolsonaro falsified his vaccination card. It doesn't offer details on what kind of protocol it uses, but it could just be a "decentralized, distributed" database, for all intents and purposes.

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[-] interolivary@beehaw.org 11 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Blockchains are "just" distributed databases with a guarantee about transaction ordering (doesn't have to be totally ordered like regular literal chain-of-blocks but eg. some sort of DAG). Then on top of that you have your consensus-forming mechanism like PoW, PoS or PoA (Proof-of-Authority), most of which are designed to work in a network where you don't trust the participants, except for PoA where nodes that eg. have a cert signed by a specific authority can do validation.

I could see PoA networks being useful for eg. banks, real estate related stuff, DNS (like @jet@hackertalks.com mentioned) etc. Anything where you'd be interested in having all parties agree on some order of transactions, and where validation is only done by trusted actors. DNS-like systems could maybe even be done with public validation, but PoW is out of the question because of the W part, and most PoS-like systems (well, PoW and PoS but still) have lots of problems with validators being incentivized to order transactions in a certain way ("Maximal Extractable Value" et al) that can actually be detrimental to the network (or even consensus) and to the users.

I'm not really super sold on the idea of public blockchain networks where anyone (well, anyone with the means, which is not a small barrier) can be a validator, they mostly seem a bit like a solution looking for a problem. I can easily envision blockchains becoming something like Linux in the sense that they could be used "in the background" in many contexts, but so that us plebs rarely actually have to deal with them (the majority of the Internet runs on some flavor of Linux, but most people don't "consciously" use it apart from Android which does its damndes to pretend not to be Linux).

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[-] nibblebit@programming.dev 9 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Audit logs and Access control paper trails.

Security event logging has to be:

  1. Broadly accessible
  2. Write-protected
  3. offering some proof of completeness.

These three requirements are tricky and often conflicting. Block-chain might be an inefficient way to achieve these, but the glove does fit quite neatly.

Logistical paperwork

  • Purchase Orders/Invoices and packing slips
  • Waybills/Bills of lading and CMR's

These kinds of documents require multiple stages of matching and approval by untrusted 3rd parties. There are dozens of ecosystems of interacting systems that support processing these documents, but most people still use paper. Paper is more reliable when you need to deliver a container full of diapers from Poland to North Sudan. It's more reliable but incredibly prone to fraud and forgery. Having all of these approvals and transactions tracked on a blockchain and letting different systems interact with the same chain, would make it possible without each ERP having a rest API to each other ERP.

[-] MiddleKnight@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 2 years ago

I fail to see what blockchain can provide in the realm of audit logging?

Fundamentally, you need to trust the systems which are logging events to log the correct events at the correct time. How does blockchain change this?

[-] nibblebit@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago

Yeah the problem isn't the veracity of the logs, it's providing a mechanism for third parties of proving that the sequence of events in your log hasn't been tampered with after the fact

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[-] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

It's more about tampering with the audit log. "Company A provided their audit logs to prove their innocence." Did they? Well. Maybe. How do we know it's the full log. How do we know it wasn't altered? Sure, the company can digitally sign it, but what does that prove?

[-] MiddleKnight@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 2 years ago

Then sign and send the audit log in realtime to the authority which A provided their logs to. Same effect no blockchain.

You could also encrypt and publish it. But realistically there is always going to be some entity actually responsible for enacting the consequences for non-compliance and they are the only entity that really ever needs to check these logs.

I am not sure I understand what the incentives to "mine" this blockchain would be. Without a certain block difficulty, which requires many miners, it will be trivial to rewrite the entire chain.

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[-] Chef@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago

Land deeds and property titles.

Maintaining a provable chain of ownership and legal transfer of land and property is required for mortgages, for title insurance, inheretance, etc.

A public, decentralized ledger of land/property transfers could revolutionize home ownership, lending, insurance, etc

[-] tsz@lemmy.world 15 points 2 years ago

Land ownership (in the US) already is public. What problem would this solve? What problems would it create? How would the solutions outweigh the problems?

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[-] Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 2 years ago

How does a central government database not also solve those problems?

[-] half_built_pyramids@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

There's only a few recorders who actually check title, called Torrens, when you record something in the US. 99% of them work under abstract where literally anyone can record anything as long as they pay the county recorder and meet the basic requirements like have a notary stamp.

There's a good chance if you're in the US that I could just record a deed giving me ownership of your house or apartment complex. I'd have to fraudulently sign your name as grantor, but the county isn't going to stop me. You'll have to stop me.

There's a whole huge industry around recording and verifying deeds for sales to deal with that type of nonsense. First, they won't want to get dismantled. Fidelity is huge for example. Sort of like how TurboTax inserts themselves between you and paying taxes. Fidelity inserts themselves between you buying and selling a house.

A verified Blockchain would essentially turn everything into torrens instead of abstract title. I think that's a good thing and I'd rather pay the government to verify the transaction than done for profit company that's going to review title as quickly and cheaply as possible.

Nevermind having to deal with a title insurance industry -- like all insurance -- that's inherently be incentivised to reduce costs by not paying claims.

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[-] rezz@lemmy.world 7 points 2 years ago

The paradox is that it must solve money first. The original intended usecase is not only the best, but it is a prerequisite to higher order use cases.

Think of the money supply layers, “M0, M1, M2” and so on, and what they mean.

Smart contracts are an “M1-M2+” problem solver. But M0 still isn’t solved.

In other words, having stock markets or NFT housing chain of title will always fail if the money usecase upon which it stands is still fallible. Ethereum put the cart before the horse. Bitcoin or Bitcoin Cash, “dumb” M0 solutions, have to be widely useful for the rest to work.

[-] OffByOneError@programming.dev 5 points 2 years ago

When NFTs were invented, people imagined them being used for things like titles/deeds. Instant transfer and verifiability would be a huge thing. especially in places that have real estate scams due to the slow/corrupt bureaucracy.

[-] computertoucher5000@programming.dev 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

A good while back I read a paper, blog post....I read something somewhere a while back that laid out an interesting use case involving vehicular service records for fleet vehicles. And I know exactly about as much about blockchain then, as I do now, but I did spend some time in fleet logistics for a large scale service company with about 20+ field vans and at the time, the notion seemed compelling and interesting on the face of it.

After a very brief google, it seems the topic has been widely written about but nothing in depth compared to the piece I read all those years ago (which felt more like a full on white-paper). Looking around and will edit the comment if I find it so the people in the room who are smarter than I am can weigh in.

[-] Noughmad@programming.dev 3 points 2 years ago

I don't know much about the topic in depth, but I can tell you the greatest problem with using a blockchain for such record keeping: there is no way to ensure that the service that was recorded in the blockchain actually matches the service that was performed. And this is the same problem that every single record keeping system has, so it's not unique, but simply because of this all the greater reliability of the blockchain is meaningless.

[-] imperator3733@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

The only use that I've thought of over the years is event logging where you need a very high confidence that no one has tampered with the logs.

[-] robinm@lemmyrs.org 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

git

Its backing store is an (immutable) merkle tree, which is a chain of crypographically signed object (commits, trees and blob), aka a chain of block, aka a blockchain.

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this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
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