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submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by MindTraveller@lemmy.ca to c/main

The community c/libertyhub@lemmy.blahaj.zone states in the sidebar it's a community for leftists and post leftists, but if you actually look at the posts the mods are making, it's almost nothing but trolling and telling people not to vote in the general election.

This rhetoric is especially dangerous to trans people, who this instance is supposed to be a safe space for, and West Bank Palestinians. If the USA elects a fascist president, there is guaranteed to be multiple genocides of society's most vulnerable groups, in addition to what the US is already doing in Gaza.

The mods on Liberty Hub openly troll their users and ban people for advocating left wing or harm reducing positions. The only action that is allowed on the sub is advocating political inaction in the face of genocide, taking a centrist position with regards to open fascism.

This community has absolutely no place on Blahaj Zone and should be removed by the admins.

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[-] ada 70 points 4 months ago

I'm not going to remove a community for pushing back against a system that forces them to vote for genocide.

I don't think that not voting is the answer, but I also don't think that me telling people they're not allowed to feel differently is the answer. The majority of the people in that community will be forced to live with the consequences of their votes. They will be directly targeted by Trump. And if they still feel that pushing back against genocide in Palestine is more important than the consequences of Trump on their very own personal safety, I'm not going to stand in the way of that.

This isn't outside trolls and agitators. This is a community of folk, directly in the line of fire, choosing to stand there for a cause they see as important. As long as their intentions are genuine (which I believe they are), It's not my place to tell them that they're not allowed to take that stand.

That being said, I am going to reach out to the staff there, and address the insults and the like being thrown at other users. It's against both the community rules, and against the Blahaj Zone Community Guidelines.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 29 points 4 months ago

There's a difference between taking a stand that will harm themselves, and taking a stand that will harm everyone else as well while preventing others from taking a stand against them.

[-] ada 44 points 4 months ago

There is no harm free choice here.

[-] Hildegarde@lemmy.world 27 points 4 months ago

Pledging to vote for someone despite the genocide means they have no incentive to stop the genocide. That is the more dangerous stance.

Ballots are secret. There is no way to prove how you voted once the ballot is sumbmitted. The optimal play is to make a lot of noise saying that your vote is contingent on an end to the genocide, even if that isn't how you actually vote on election day.

Pledging to vote for biden at this point is encouragement. Why would he do anything about palestine if he knows you're going to vote for him anyway?

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 29 points 4 months ago

You might be clever enough to walk that fine line, but the average voter is not. They hear "don't vote for Biden" and they believe you. Expecting to trick the president and not trick the millions of other people who need to vote against fascism for fascism not to happen, is impossible.

You're playing chicken with fascism. You're spreading fascist propaganda to voters while the DNC threatens the same and hoping the other one blinks first. But you and I have a lot more to lose from fascism than those rich white people do, and they're not going to blink. Your threats of fascism are going to come true.

[-] Quacksalber@sh.itjust.works 12 points 4 months ago

They have no incentive either way. Either Biden wins and stays the course, or Trump wins and... well...

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[-] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Assume people make rational choices. When a president is elected, especially for a 2nd term, then they have little to no incentive to actually listen to the voters. It fucking sucks, but that is how the system works. Election time is literally the only time we can push meaningful change.

When election day comes, I think people we rationally understand that Trump is a greater danger both to Palastine and to the trans community and vote accordingly.

If I agree that there is no value in not voting, then I feel you should be able to recognize that there is value in SAYING you are not voting. To me, it's far more likely that the people in that community know this fact instead of somehow not recognizing the danger of Trump.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 15 points 4 months ago

Assume people make rational choices.

Why? I don't think people have earned that much faith. People elected Trump in 2016 and I think they might well do it again.

[-] inb4_FoundTheVegan@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

People elected Trump in 2016 and I think they might well do it again.

And do you think those are the same people are on blahaj? That support palastine enough to protest? Do you really think its more likely those people will just stand by and let the situation get worse under Trump?

[-] lady_scarecrow 8 points 4 months ago

The ones who are more on the left are exactly the ones who are less inclined to vote, so yes.

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[-] lady_scarecrow 22 points 4 months ago

I fail to see how that community is pushing back against any system by repeating the same tired talking points that dissuade people from voting.

[-] ada 19 points 4 months ago

And that's s perfectly reasonable perspective. But it's not a reason to moderate or ban the community...

[-] lady_scarecrow 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Quickly going through the modlog of that community I've found these three comments that were removed for no other reason than they didn't align with what some mod thinks, along with a lot of people who were banned with the reason "liberal".

I don't even agree with these comments, but that doesn't matter. You're willing to host that community to give them a voice, while the mods stifle dissent and ban anyone who disagrees.

[-] ada 19 points 4 months ago

I am not willing to exclude trans and queer folk over a difference of opinion, when those opinions are genuinely held, and on issues that directly impact them.

I am not going to tell queer folk that there is a right or a wrong way to deal with the rising tide of bigotry, racism and intolerance we are all facing.

As long as the their community rules live up to the instance community guidelines, they're allowed to moderate on their own terms.

I get that you see me as "giving them a voice", and I guess, ultimately it is. But that's because the goal of blahaj zone is to create a space for trans and queer voices. And that's what those voices are.

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[-] Catoblepas 42 points 4 months ago

Have you tried blocking the community instead of interacting with it? There’s plenty of communities I block because I think they’re dumb and annoying, or because the moderation team is a train wreck.

“It’s transphobic to think Joe Biden is a genocide enabling asshole because that means you support not voting for him which means you support Trump getting elected which means you support transphobic policies and this should be banned from Blahaj” is a series of assumptions built on assumptions, most of which are bad faith and work backwards from wanting the community banned. Demanding a trans admin ban them for transphobia when what you want them banned for is bad politics is tasteless at best, and comes off as manipulative.

Before anyone gets a bug up their ass about if I vote blue enough, I live in a large city in California. We are more likely to see the sun explode than for my elector to vote for anyone other than a Democrat, which I think is ultimately the least bad option that is likely to happen between now and November (but is still a bad system because we need ranked choice).

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 months ago

Man, why didn't I think of preventing political propaganda from reaching people by ignoring it. What a good idea!

[-] Catoblepas 15 points 4 months ago

Memes from someone whose takes you don’t like isn’t the same thing as propaganda and it certainly doesn’t make the community transphobic. If you can’t live with seeing it, block it. There is real, honest to god, paid for with billionaire cash political propaganda targeting trans people out there, and that community ain’t it.

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[-] Gormadt 29 points 4 months ago

After going on over for a look around I agree with you.

Not voting is horrendously dangerous for the most vulnerable groups especially in this upcoming election.

[-] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 20 points 4 months ago

Tbh I think the guy drank the flavor aid. I saw how that dude started out and iirc he started with more reasonable political stances; but he's gone way off the rails. If he's who I think he is, then I feel kinda feel bad for him. He wasn't always like this.

[-] Guntrigger@sopuli.xyz 15 points 4 months ago

Yeah, I've personally had them tagged as "leftist trump bot" since interacting with that sub once and getting banned immediately. I've since seen them post sane stuff elsewhere on the fediverse and was surprised as within that sub they seem completely unhinged.

[-] LallyLuckFarm@beehaw.org 11 points 4 months ago

I'd had a few conversations with them before they came to blahaj, and I agree that I feel bad seeing how it's gone since then. I miss their attitude from earlier, in that sort of "I hope my friend is okay but I'm worried we no longer have a relationship where I can help" kind of vibe

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[-] zea_64 20 points 4 months ago

I've been in that community pushing to reluctantly vote for Biden and I haven't been banned! In fact, I don't see a ton of "don't vote for Biden" stuff, mostly just "Biden sucks" stuff. Perhaps you're dividing things into sides to aggressively.

I agree they're a little trolly and definitely inflame, which I don't like, but calling it transphobic requires quite the leap of logic.

[-] zea_64 16 points 4 months ago

Here's a post where that mod actually advocates voting for Biden. He also hates Biden and levies plenty of valid criticisms. These are not mutually exclusive.

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Meanwhile, OP is making some pretty gross transphobic jokes about suicide on .world

https://lemmy.ca/comment/10095468

It's disgusting. You're telling people that if they're opposing a genocide, they might as well kill themselves.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 16 points 4 months ago

Making fun of people who try to shame me into killing myself is my coping mechanism for being shamed and told to kill myself. I agree, it's gross that such a situation has even arisen. But it's not like ignoring transphobia is going to help.

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You're the one making transphobic jokes about suicide in that thread

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 10 points 4 months ago
[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 11 points 4 months ago

I'm a trans person that has struggled with suicidal thoughts/depression for a long time. I also oppose genocide, although I don't like telling people how to vote.

Your 'joke' has a pretty clear message to people like me, and I don't like it. But I see it very often. I don't really mind when it's from some alt right bro on reddit, but it hurts a little more coming from a queer space.

You should find other ways of making your point, or else you're just doing a more wordy 48% meme.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It seems you've already made up your mind that deconstructing and condemning transphobia is transphobic, so maybe it would be best for your mental health if you avoided posts where we tell transphobes to fuck off.

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You are really terrible. I don't like telling personal details online, but I thought maybe it would help you see that you're being insensitive. Instead, you just imply that I'm crazy and transphobic.

[-] femtech@midwest.social 11 points 4 months ago

Would you understand the meme better is the used the SpongeBob meme to relay their sarcasm in that post. I'm trans and get the joke they are trying to make. People that say don't vote are privileged or ignorant of the harm that trump will do to everyone that's not white, straight, and well off financially.

[-] Daxtron2@startrek.website 9 points 4 months ago

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit

[-] doubtingtammy@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 months ago

Neither subtext nor empathy are yours

[-] Daxtron2@startrek.website 8 points 4 months ago

You're literally telling the person who was being attacked that they're transphobic you soggy napkin

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[-] good_girl 16 points 4 months ago
[-] Guntrigger@sopuli.xyz 14 points 4 months ago

Oh yeah, that community is horrible. I saw a ton of their posts popping up on my feed and made a comment on there before blocking it (some question about the heavy advocacy for voter apathy) and was immediately banned.

[-] MindTraveller@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone I've been banned from Liberty Hub as of 9 hours ago. My only interaction with the sub lately is this post here and the comment I left in the linked thread. The ban reason is "off topic", which is not a Liberty Hub or Blahaj rule. 9 hours ago is also when the thread I linked seems to have been deleted by the Liberty Hub mods, and was replaced with another thread with a near-identical image and near-identical title. The only motivation for the ban I can see is for criticising the community, and the only motivation for deleting the post I can see is to hide evidence of the behaviour I describe in the post.

Liberty Hub's 8th rule is that open discussion should be encouraged and bad faith attacks should be prevented. I believe a moderator is breaking their own community's rules in their moderator actions, while banning users for reasons that have nothing to do with the community rules. If Liberty Hub's stated rules have nothing to do with the actions taken by moderators, then there can be no oversight from the admin team to prevent instance rule violations. I believe the guideline of empathy has already been broken, and has been broken on an ongoing basis for months. The moderators of this community have gone rogue. They are not respecting the instance or even their own community's values.

[-] Hawk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 4 months ago

I got banned there for staying I thought I was on hexbear

[-] ArmokGoB@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 4 months ago

They're fascists with a leftist coat of paint, and anyone who thinks they should be allowed to propagate their views is complicit in their efforts to maximize harm.

[-] megopie 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Eh, maybe not ban, but like, remind them that this a community space, and that they should moderate and remove commenters/posters who are being actively toxic or harassing people for disagreeing.

Like, I’m not fan of Biden or the neoliberal order, but what is going on there isn’t doing anything constructive. Even if they don’t intend it, the way that space is moderated, it’s a potential harbor for bad faith trolls.

It is all spite, no solutions or discussions of means of action. Just “we sure do hate this particular side of the two ruling parties.”

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[-] ToastedPlanet 8 points 4 months ago

The community is not made up of transphobes or accelerationists so there is no problem. I don't post or comment there because I don't see the point in taking the time to write or make something for an echo chamber that will just remove my comment or post. But just because I don't agree with every take in that community doesn't mean it doesn't have value.

[-] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 months ago

Yes, this place was very obviously a right wing propaganda community from the first day I saw it. It's amazing so many otherwise smart leftists and progressives continue to fall for this mindless contrarian nonsense. These are trolls trying to divide us, and it's incredibly obvious to me.

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this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2024
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