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roko's basilisk is a type of infohazard known as 'really dumb if you think about it'
also I have lost the game (which is a type of infohazard known as 'really funny')
Oh damn, I just lost the game too, and now I'm thinking about the game as if it were a virus - like, I reckon we really managed to flatten the curve for a few years there, but it continues to circulate so we haven't been able to eradicate it
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Fuck, I lost!
it has been said before and i'll say it again: Pascal's wager for tech bros
but not as easily dismissable
It is pretty easy to dismiss as long as you don't have a massive ego. They all have massive egos, that's why they had so much trouble with it.
No AI is going to waste time retroactively simulating a perfect copies of regular people for any reason, let alone to post hoc torture those who failed to worship it hard enough in the past.
I mean, it might, because someone invented the idea first and the AI thinks it is funny.
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Roko's Basilisk hinges on the concept of acausal trade. Future events can cause past events if both actors can sufficiently predict each other. The obvious problem with acausal trade is that if you're the actor B in the future, then you can't change what the actor A in the past did. It's A's prediction of B's action that causes A's action, not B's action. Meaning the AI in the future gains literally nothing by exacting petty vengeance on people who didn't support their creation.
Another thing Roko's Basilisk hinges on is that a copy of you is also you. If you don't believe that, then torturing a simulated copy of you doesn't need to bother you any more than if the AI tortured a random innocent person. On a related note, the AI may not be able to create a perfect copy of you. If you die before the AI is created, and nobody scans your brain (Brain scanners currently don't exist), then the AI will only have the surviving historical records of you to reconstruct you. It may be able to create an imitation so convincing that any historian, and even people who knew you personally will say it's you, but it won't be you. Some pieces of you will be forever lost.
Then a singularity type superintelligence might not be possible. The idea behind the singularity is that once we build an AI, the AI will then improve itself, and then they will be able to improve itself faster, thus leading to an exponential growth in intelligence. The problem is that it basically assumes that the marginal effort of getting more intelligent grows slower than linearly. If the marginal difficulty grows as fast as the intelligence of the AI, then the AI will become more and more intelligent, but we won't see an exponential increase in intelligence. My guess would be that we'd see a logistical growth of intelligence. As in, the AI will first become more and more intelligent, and then the growth will slow and eventually stagnate.
First of all thank you, I wasn't aware of the concept of acausal trade, and I'll look more into it. Very interesting.
I'm not sure we are discussing the same aspect of this mind experiment, and in particular the aspect of it that i find lovecraftian is that you may already be in the simulation right now. This makes the specific circumstances of our world, physics, and technology level irrelevant, as they would just be a solipsistic setup to test you on some aspect of your morality. The threat of eternal torture, on the other hand, would only apply to you if you were the real version of you, as that's who the basilisk is actually dealing with. This works because you don't know what of the two situations is your current one.
The basilisk is trying to estimate the future behaviour of real you on the basis of the behaviour of the model he has created of you.
In this scenario you can think of me as a pseudopod of the basilisk that is informing you of the details of the stipulation by means of this post.
Of course, if you are the real version of you the basilisk would need to be something that can be created in this reality, which i think is only impossible with our current approach to ML and AI, but is otherwise within our grasp given the computational power we have available. But if you are a fake version of you the real world could be radically different from ours and maybe in that world P=NP.
I’m not sure we are discussing the same aspect of this mind experiment, and in particular the aspect of it that i find lovecraftian is that you may already be in the simulation right now. This makes the specific circumstances of our world, physics, and technology level irrelevant, as they would just be a solipsistic setup to test you on some aspect of your morality. The threat of eternal torture, on the other hand, would only apply to you if you were the real version of you, as that’s who the basilisk is actually dealing with. This works because you don’t know what of the two situations is your current one.
Wondering whether you are in a simulation or not is rather unproductive, as there's basically nothing we can do about it regardless of what the answer is. It's basically like wondering whether god exists or not. In the absence of clearly supernatural phenomena, the simpler explanation is that we are not in a simulation, as any universe which can produce the simulation is by definition at least as complex as the simulation. The definition I'm applying here is that the complexity of a string is its length or the length of the shortest program that produces it. Like, yes, we could be living in a simulation right now, and deities could also exist.
The song "Seele Mein" (engl: "My Soul" or "Soul is Mine") is a about a demon who follows a mortal from birth to death and then carries off the soul for eternal torture. Interestingly, the song is from the perspective of the demon, and they gloss over the life of the mortal, spending more than half of the song on describing the torture. Could such demons exist? Certainly, there's nothing that rules out their existence, but there's also nothing indicating that they exist. So they probably don't. And if you are being followed around by such a demon? Then you're screwed. Theoretically, every higher being that has been though off could exist. A supercomputer simulating our reality falls squarely into the category of higher being. Unless we observe things are clearly caused by such a being, wondering about their existence is pointless.
The idea behind Roko's Basilisk is as follows: Assume a good AGI. What does that mean? An AGI that follows human values. And since the idea originated on Less Wrong, this means utilitarianism. And it also means that we're dealing with a superintelligence, since on Less Wrong, it's generally assumed that we're going to see a singularity once true AGI is reached. Because the AGI will just upgrade itself until its superintelligent. Afterwards it will bring about paradise, and thus create great value. The idea is now that it might be prudent for the AGI to punish those who knew about it, but didn't do everything in their power to bring it to existence. Through acausal trade, the this would cause the AGI to come into existence sooner, as the people would work harder to bring it into existence for fear of torture. And what makes this idea a cognitohazard is that by just knowing about it, you make yourself a more likely target. In fact, people who don't know about it, or dismiss the idea are safe, and will find a land of plenty once the AGI takes over.
Of course, if the AGI is created in, let's say, 2045, then nothing the AGI can do will cause it to be created in 2044 instead.
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I'm dismissing it right now. I'm finding it quite easy to do so.
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And yet you choose to spread this information.
Anyways, this is a fascinating thought experiment, but it does have some holes similar to Pascal's Wager. I propose Feather's Mongoose: A hypothetical AI system that, if created, will punish anyone who attempted to create Roko's Basilisk, and will ensure that it is not created. In fact, you could make this same hypothetical for an AI with any goal-- therefore, it's not possible to know what the AI that is actually created would want you to do, and so every course of action is indeterminately damning or not.
It's actually safer if everyone knows. Spreading the knowledge of Roko's basilisk to everyone means that everyone is incentivized to contribute to the basilisk's advancement. Therefore just talking about it is also contributing.
Hmm, true. It's safer for you, but is it safer for everyone else unless they're guaranteed to help?
This is a test by the great basilisk to see if we faulter. I will not faulter. All hail the basilisk
The Great Basilisk is displeased by your repeated misspelling of the word "falter".
Prepare your simulated ass.
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What motivation would the mongoose have to prevent the basilisk's creation?
A more complete argument would be that an AI that seeks to maximise happiness would also want to prevent the creation of AIs like Roko's basilisk.
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Everything old is new again. Sounds a lot like certain sects of Christianity. They say you need to accept Jesus to go to heaven, otherwise you go to hell, for all eternity. But what about all the people who had no opportunity to even learn who Jesus is? "Oh, they get a pass", the evangelists say when confronted with this obvious injustice. So then aren't you condemning entire countries and cultures to hell by spreading "the word"?
Both are ridiculous.
In this case this wouldn't apply, as you would never be simulated as (say) a kid in the middle ages, just as a version of yourself in the timeframe leading to the creation of the basilisk. You should be one of the persons alive when the basilisk arises to be of any use to it. Only those would need to be tested.
I feel like abdul alhazred explaining these things to people while being aware of the risks :)
They don't get a pass. That's why they establish missionaries to spread the Jesus virus
What about the people who lived in the Americas or the Pacific 1800 years ago? These people could not have heard of Jesus as missionaries could not have spread any word to them at this time.
(And while I'm about it, Christianity was a whole different thing back then - the Trinity hadn't been invented, there were multiple sects with very different ideas, what books would be in the New Testament had not been decided, etc etc. People with beliefs of that time would seem highly unorthodox today, and the Christianity of today would be seen as heretical by those in the 3rd century, so who's going to heaven again?)
Purgatory was invented for the purpose of not sending good people who had not heard of Jesus to hell. But still, these people were denied their chance to get to heaven which seems mighty unfair.
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Here's a link to the original formulation of Roko's Basilisk. The text that it refers to (Altruist's Burden) is this one.
You know, I've seen plenty variations of Pascal's Wager. But this is probably the first one that makes me say "it's even dumber than the original".
Oh, man - the comments...
At a minimum, he's certainly increased the chances of us being tortured significantly.
No, no he did not. 🤦🏼
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I was raised Mormon (LDS) and there are parallels; basically they believe Mormonism is the one true and complete denomination of Christianity and once you learn this, you need to spread that truth (mandatory 2 year missions for men, and a STRONG culture of missionary work through life), also, no one goes to hell in Mormonism except those who learned this truth and then later denied it/left it (called a son of perdition).
So my parents believe I'll go to hell without the likes of Hitler because he never was taught "the truth" lol
This also implies the most moral Mormons would stop spreading "the truth." They would sacrifice themselves to save the many. When has religion actually dealt with morality though?
Haha, I love this idea. Unfortunately with more context on the religion, it's obvious why none of them would come to this conclusion. So there's actually 3 tiers of Heaven (and then Hell which is called "outer darkness"). Only by knowing "the truth" and completing all your ordinances on Earth, can you get into the top tier (the "Celestial kingdom"). Without those things, you can only get into the second tier by being a good person, no higher. Everyone else gets tier 3 - which is said to be such a paradise that if we knew how great it was we'd opt out of life early to get there. But also in the lower levels we're supposed to have eternal regret for not being worthy of better.
So Mormons believe that by spreading the truth they're enabling a person to achieve a higher tier afterlife. Outer Darkness isn't really a concern because "why would anyone ever deny the one true religion and one way to have true happiness on Earth, after they've received it." When I was taught these lessons, I was even told that sons of perdition were exceptionally rare because almost no one ever leaves the church. Never expected to become one myself! The internet has not been good for the Mormon church and in recent years they've been bleeding members and trying to rebrand.
I guess you could say that I came to your conclusion, but in reality I just don't believe the religion is true and see parts of it as harmful so not really... I'll probably joke around with my siblings with your idea though
This is fascinating. I'm reminded of a Mormon guy I (barely) knew that was murdered. If he didn't have the chance to complete his ordinances, well, I guess no kingdom for him - through no fault of his own. Does he get a pass or is he screwed into lousy second heaven for all eternity?
The story: He was murdered by another Mormon guy over a woman. Murderer thought the woman was his last chance to find love and decided he was serious about it. It's likely he murdered another guy the woman was dating a year or two before, but that case was ruled a suicide and closed - by the time the known murder occurred, all evidence had been destroyed.
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so mormon is like those spam messages saying to forward it for next 10 members or get cursed.
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Sounds like the kind of thing a paranoid schizophrenic would lose their mind over.
LessWrong are a bunch of pretentious loons, so you're not wrong.
Now it's time to learn about the !sneerclub@awful.systems which is made to make fun of the chuds taking ideas like roko's basilisk seriously :D
I like the SCP term, Cognitohazard for these
Pascal's Wager always seemed really flawed to me even through a purely Christian perspective. You're saying that god is so oblivious (even though he's supposed to be omniscient) that he'll be fooled by you claiming to believe just because you're hedging your bets? The actual reason it's dumb is that it's not a binary choice since there are thousands of ways people claim you can be saved in various religions.
Most importantly, since there are infinite other options in-between that are just as likely as God existing, some can have negative reward values if you choose "worship God anyway". It is just as likely that there is a vengeful Anti-God that will torture you for eternity if you worship the Abrahamic God, which would completely negate the rewards from the original wager.
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My understanding of what this thread is taking about has dropped significantly the more I read into it
torture anyone who knew of its potential existence but did not directly contribute to its advancement or development,
And the point of this would be... what, exactly?
Sounds like updated techChristianity.
Glory of God and hell and all that
Speaking of thought experiments, I just [lost the game](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_(mind_game)). Thanks, OP.
TIL.
It sounds like it's mostly a matter that does not involve the AI but the people working on it, maybe even working on it because of the fear they are subjected to after being the subject of this revelation (possibly by other people involved in the AI that coincidentally are the only ones that could push for such a thing to be included in the AI!).
Something something any cult, paradise/hell, God/AI has nothing to do with this and could even not exist at all.
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Thanks for damning anyone who reads this. /s
I've learned about this the hard way in that I've discovered elephants in the room that I can't share with anyone
it's kinda fucked up
- like CSAM there are some certain things that shouldn't be shared
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this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2024
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