127
submitted 4 months ago by neme@lemm.ee to c/games@sh.itjust.works
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 72 points 4 months ago

It's really sad that Blizzard has no idea what makes D2 a great game, especially considering they just released D2R so we can relive the glory for ourselves. D4 on release was nowhere close to D2, it was more like a toddler trying to make an MMO.

In D2, you can feel your character become more powerful with levels alone. In fact, gearing basically doesn't matter for most of normal difficulty, it's almost entirely level focused. D4 scales content to your players level, meaning every level you gained made you weaker. No shit people didn't want to go for a long XP grind, who wants to continually grind to do less damage?

[-] Sabin10@lemmy.world 32 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Maybe it's because I grew up with 8 and 16 bit rpgs but I despise level scaling. It really takes the enjoyment out of playing for me so I just don't play games that have it. Some games have min and max enemy levels based on location but others keep the enemies in lock step to you and it just makes playing the game feel pointless. In either case, every game with level scaling would be better without it.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The only kind of scaling I am okay with is how new enemy types will only start appearing after level X. You still feel like you're getting powerful, but at the same time you start getting slightly more challenging enemies sprinkled in. However you only really need this in non-linear games where you expect and encourage the player to go anywhere they want instead of having complete control over the progression and how things ramp up.

Like Fallout New Vegas and 4 do. Though even those could be a bit better.

[-] withabeard@sh.itjust.works 12 points 4 months ago

Na... Honestly

Baldurs gate and bgII had an open world where you could go anywhere. Go to certain places early game, you'd get hard fucked up. Go there later, you could make progress.

I loved the feeling of getting more powerful and that was what unlocked more of the game.

[-] kurcatovium@lemm.ee 4 points 4 months ago

The best example of this is any game from Piranha bytes. Especially first Gothic was prime example. You're such a piece of sht at the beginning that every single even the most basic creature will give you hard time killing it or will smash you with one hit in case of stronger ones.

But as you level up and get better gear things will change drastically. Even couple levels or stronger weapon will enable you to progress to new part of map, because now you're able to finally kill the pack of wild flies guarding the passage.

Few levels later you can even go through forest without constant fear of wolf attack. And at the end you smash shadowbeasts like it's nothing... This feels awesome and that's what level scaling absolutely ruins.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It's the mostly same for the games I mentioned, it's just incredibly easy to become OP in them so it's not that hard of a roadblock and it still scales enemies beyond just adding in new types. NV has static leveled areas and FO4 spawns more difficult enemies the further away you move from Sanctuary. You can go anywhere right at the start, but you're not gonna have an easy time fighting dearhclaws and cazadores at level 1.

[-] Oni_eyes@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 months ago

I still recall putting dark souls down for a solid couple months after being frustrated that I couldn't beat the area after the first boss.

Because my dumbass thought that I was supposed to go through the graveyard with all the skeletons and got my shit handed to me repeatedly. Honestly made me love the game more when I realized there was a little path up to the right to go to the actual next area...

[-] TrousersMcPants@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

I still don't know what exactly it was about Assassins Creed Odyssey that made it work so well for me overall, but I liked the level scaling in it. Areas had a minimum level, so I'd try to go there at lower levels and get my ass beat. But being higher level didn't make the areas that much easier, because they would scale up to me. What gave me a feeling of progression was my available toolkit to deal with enemies as time went on.

[-] ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

When the dev doesn't have enough resources or time or werewithall to make different areas with different mobs, they reuse the existing areas to pad out the grind. Level scaling is a sign of lazy development.

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

At the very least, FromSoftware continues to prove that level scaling is not a requirement. I honestly think that without their influence, we would have seen a lot more adoption of the practice. It's the kinda brain-dead idea that comes from an MBA who's sole focus is reaching the widest audience possible .

[-] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 14 points 4 months ago

Weirdly enough the D4 skill tree is even worse than the one (I know not really a tree) in D3. The first abilities almost don't matter and are just "filler" for your resource regen or cooldowns and the main abilities are just a handful, most of them kinda meh and with barely any progression & variety behind them.

As for D2R I wish they would've gone a bit farther with it, like an item filter feels like a must have with how much it spams loot onto your screen to the point where it does not display everything. This can cause you to literally not see something like a high rune on the ground because of some trash items taking up the tooltip space. Or things like the vanity system from D3 and D4 (minus the micro transactions).

Whatever... They lost touch with their base in favor of a new one that they can milk. Their profits and shareholders will love it though. I'm done with them.

[-] NukedRat@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago

It's funny you mention your first skills (basic skills) are just filler because this season some of the meta builds use basic skills as the main damage dealer so you don't need to even think about resource regen as they don't use it. Rogue and Sorcerer both have their best builds use the basic skills and work around them. There's still a lot to be desired with balancing and endgame but I feel they are turning things around gradually.

[-] DarkThoughts@fedia.io 3 points 4 months ago

I don't care about seasons, or rather more accurately I do not like seasons, but that makes me not care about whatever they do within a season. And season rewards are just there for FOMO, which I hate even more.

[-] Postmortal_Pop@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago

Honestly, I can't get behind d2r. D2 still runs perfectly fine, my Battlebox still installs, and I know it won't have any bullshit from this side of the 2010's

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 5 points 4 months ago

Seriously, give it a go. It's honestly a great remaster. There are some extra runewords added and some other small stuff, but it's basically D2 with nicer graphics and prettier cutscenes. Gameplay is unchanged, warts and all. We even get ladder resets again!

[-] Postmortal_Pop@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

I may try it, I just can't get behind paying blizzard more money.

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 2 points 4 months ago

Yeah, that's fair. I guess I'm hopeful that things have changed after Microsoft bought them, but they probably still suck.

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 3 points 4 months ago

I agree that an item-filter would have been a nice addition, but with Blizzard you have to take a hardline #NoChanges approach. Otherwise you'll get something like the WC3 remaster, or every Classic WoW expansion. They did add a few small additions after the remaster was released, like Helltides and some new Runewords, but they're all thankfully ignorable if you want to.

[-] gila@lemm.ee 8 points 4 months ago

They adjusted the level scaling for S3, with different thresholds depending on the world tier you're in. As you approach the monster level cap for a given world tier, the scaling slows down so that it's outpaced by the player level.

I agree it shouldn't have scaled 1:1 all the way to max level on launch, but people are super quick to forget how well D4 was generally received on launch. It was literally used as a counterexample to games that launched badly, "it was more like a toddler trying to make an MMO" seems like a dishonest characterisation to me. What complaints do you have that aren't long since resolved?

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 7 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I mean, releasing one of the worst ARPGs of all time isn't exactly a triumphant launch. I think D4 is fine now that it's effectively become a sequel to D3, which is why I tried to use the past-tense as much as I could, but D4 was only received well by casuals. Every ARPG fan I know and every content creator I watched played it for like 2 days, realized there were deep systemic issues, and dipped.

[-] gila@lemm.ee 3 points 4 months ago

That's just not consistent with the reality that Diablo 4 was released to wide acclaim. Wolcen was far worse than D4 in almost every area. I think you just got farmed for engagement, because contrarianism is trendy.

[-] TauriWarrior@aussie.zone 4 points 4 months ago

Everyone I know that played at launch when I asked if it was worth getting told me no, even more so after the first few patches

[-] gila@lemm.ee 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_IV#Reception

There wasn't really any discontent online about the base game mechanics until there was discontent about the live service content for S1 a couple of months later.

I might be ignoring nonsense complaints like about barb nerfs despite barb being consistently the most powerful class by a significant margin to this day, simply due to having more slots for more affixes & legendary powers

[-] Gigagoblin 3 points 4 months ago

people were literally criticising the game so much on all the Diablo-related r/'s that i had to unsub from each one. like, yeah, it got good ratings, but if anything, that only served to further incense the ones displeased.

there was a lot of stupid, toxic bs, for sure, but there were also players dipping out before the first season even began -- myself included. like, this is just me, obviously, but D4 at launch was straight up the most let down i've ever been by a game.

for brevity's sake, i gotta say that season 4 made me wanna give D4 another shot. & you know, it's fun now, but there are still elements to it that make me want to scream & that's not gonna change, because it's all a part of their vision for the core experience of the game.

[-] gila@lemm.ee 1 points 4 months ago

Ya, that's a subreddit for an online game tho - being a circlejerk of negativity is like its primary function, even for breakout hits like Helldivers or The Finals. It's part of why I left reddit completely, and why "someone online said it's bad" doesn't pass the sniff test for legitimate criticism for me. As an ARPG enthusiast, I went in with the expectation that it was neither POE nor Diablo Immortal; that I'd play it alongside other ARPG's cyclically; that it'd be made or broken by the quality of the seasonal content & meta.

I understand it fell short of others' expectations, but I think that's primarily an issue with the expectations. That I'd rather play D4 right now over PoE or Last Epoch doesn't mean that those aren't great games, they just don't have that fresh content right now and that's ok, despite that you can easily find equivalent negative discourse about it. And if D4 S5 sucks, the inverse will also be true.

[-] Gigagoblin 1 points 4 months ago

yeah, okay. all i'm saying is, parts of the internet were practically incandescent with negativity towards the game, a not insignificant amount of which had to do with the base mechanics. like, there are content creators currently reporting on how season 4 is turning things around, which wouldn't be noteworthy if the game hadn't been hemorrhaging players almost immediately after launch.

D4 released to "wide acclaim" where the critics are concerned, yes, but a sizable portion of the audience clearly didn't agree. like, the game was practically a meme until recently.

[-] gila@lemm.ee 1 points 4 months ago

I think you're playing into a content creator-driven narrative that doesn't quite exist for the reasons you think. It isn't quite as simple as D4 bad, followed by D4 saved (or the delicate nuance of 'D4 mid'). Indeed masses already flipped their use of these polar opposite terms several times since its release. This is more of a treadmill you're on to drive engagement, views. If you're bored with a game, that doesn't necessarily have to be because the game is bad. It could just be that the available content has run its natural course for you. This explanation just doesn't compel people to watch videos about it, though. It can be more satisfying to have it explained to you that there is a problem with the game, that some external factor is inhibiting your enjoyment of it.

I just don't think that is an accurate representation of reality in this case. I think the latent majority audience isn't terminally online, doesn't form their opinions based on what a content creator said, doesn't watch a line on the steam charts page and cheer when its direction validates them. They just play the game until they're done, and enjoy their time with it. And that by no means is the same thing as being a 'casual'.

[-] Gigagoblin 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

i get where you're coming from, i believe, but i don't mean the, well, "treadmill," specifically. there were players testing D4 extensively & finding out that 1) some mechanics, while baffling, appeared to be working as intended (necro minion behaviour, for one) & 2) some mechanics were not working as intended (armor chief among them, IIRC). add to this the monetisation, lack of content, dungeon / map design & a whole bunch of other things people had legitimate problems with from the get-go... well. i mean. i know kind of a silly amount of people with a long history with Blizzard / Diablo, some of whom i wouldn't feel weird calling Blizzard fanboys. not a single one picked up the game at all. like, not that my peers are the alpha & omega; i just kinda hadn't thought about this much before, but it's bizarre how many friends & relatives i was sure would eat up anything by Blizzard just straight up ignored the game. again, it's not really about the treadmill as much as like, just old-fashioned word of mouth, i think. it didn't take long at all for Blizzard to post their "so, uh, things are gonna change" damage control video, which to me says they know they messed up (for what it's worth), when everyone & their dog were reporting on the game selling a buttillion copies only a little while before.

i believe i may have been coming on a bit strong. apologies. i don't at all mean to be saying that D4 was overwhelmingly criticised by everyone, just that the reception seemed to be mixed enough where two people could have an entirely different view of it, depending on the environment. you know? there were people who were primed to hate it no matter what, absolutely, but also a veritable mountain of legitimate critique that i don't want to be dismissed, because the game was not ready for launch. the "beta testing" showed as much, but of course, it was already too late to change anything. & you know, what boils my piss is, there were folks saying, "have fun with a year's worth of beta testing you paid for." because they were right. they shouldn't have been right about this. this shouldn't be happening.

load more comments (3 replies)
[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I agree, it feels very artificial and it breaks my perception of the game almost immediately.

In path of exile, you kind do the same thing. You want to fight stronger enemies because you are stronger and by doing it, you can get more and better rewards. But it's ultimately your decision when you want to face harder content. Not some algorithm that is tied to your precieved gear level.

[-] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Isn’t that the point of him saying about “the consumptive nature”? They couldn’t do what they wanted to, because they were doing a live service (that a large portion of people do want) so concessions had to be made.

I don’t think they are saying they tried doing it, it’s just the two ideas couldn’t coexist.

[-] djsoren19@yiffit.net 2 points 4 months ago

Eh, it sounds to me like they're saying "we tried to imitate D2 exactly, but people don't want it anymore." That's just flat out a lie though, because they didn't imitate D2 at all. In the article, the mention that a player could conceivably take years to drop specific "uber uniques." While true that it would take a lot of time to drop it naturally, D2 had a pretty robust trading economy in it's later years. Unless you were specifically going solo, you had the option to save up. It took time, but it was a goal that was accomplishable on ladder.

Unless they changed it when I wasn't looking, uber uniques are not tradable in D4 at all. I'm not necessarily going to argue for or against that, it's a game design choice, but it's specifically not the choice made by D2. Obviously players aren't going to want to grind for years for a specific item, but they never had to in the past.

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 36 points 4 months ago

I just want a game without the time pressure of seasons. I want to play games in my own pace. It’s hard to maintain an attachment to the character when the character “expires” once the season ends.

I haven’t played D4, so I’m not sure how seasons are implemented in that game, but this was a problem in D3. Once the season ends there’s little reason to continue playing with the character.

[-] tb_@lemmy.world 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Warframe is kinda cool in that regard, almost all content remains accessible.. in some form or another. Save for a rare few time limited events, all quests and such have remained accessible.

The one major caveat to that is "prime" versions of weapons and frames, you will have to get into player trading if you want certain ones and don't want to wait for the rotating "unvaulting". But, thanks to that unvaulting, most primes aren't ridiculously expensive to trade for. Even when you get back into the game years later and are missing a bunch (me).

There's a completely free battle pass-like system too, but that also will return items from previous passes.

There's a lot of systems... one issue of keeping so much around I guess. There are more technicalities, some weapons become less viable with time and power creep, yet a new mod or update may revitalise them! Same goes for the frames themselves, the devs have gone back and reworked older ones to bring them up to par with more modern ones.

[-] LaserTurboShark69@sh.itjust.works 4 points 4 months ago

It's even worse in D4

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] kemsat@lemmy.world 19 points 4 months ago

I don’t understand the point of seasons. I don’t want to start a new character every 90 days.

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 8 points 4 months ago

It’s mostly to maintain user engagement. It’s a way to bring players back every now and then.

[-] quafeinum@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago

Did the opposite for me. I quit before season 1 lol

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 7 points 4 months ago

Well it works best if the game is actually good.

A game that does seasons very well is Deep Rock Galactic. Each season comes with fresh new content. Old seasons can be revisited if you missed them, so no stress. The new additions to the game are permanent, which adds great variety to the missions. Progress follows between seasons, so no need to create new characters from scratch.

Most importantly: the game is really good as well.

[-] Daxtron2@startrek.website 3 points 4 months ago

So don't play seasons then? Thats what the eternal league is for

[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

Fair, but there's also the permanent league.

[-] kemsat@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

Sure, but does the season content get added to the permanent league? As far as I know, it doesn’t, but I could be wrong.

[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Guess not.

For me the first two-the weeks are the best anyway. Everyone starts fresh, the economy is fresh, activity is happening.

Gives the game new life

Diablo bores me, but with PoE it's very exciting. And with every league you pay you become better at the game, so the next league you know more and you'll make stronger characters and farm better items

[-] Rev@sh.itjust.works 15 points 4 months ago

I, for one, was never a fan of the grind. I played Diablo 2 online for years because the people and interactions made doing the same old runs more fun and exciting. These days it almost seems like games are intentionally made worse because success is measured in units sold and not cult followings or individual experience.

[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 7 points 4 months ago

I got into the mood of some ARPG goodness with all the Path of Exile 2 news. Diablo 2 really was the only viable one for me. Even PoE 1 isn't right for me either. It feels too claustrophobic.

[-] NuWuX@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago

Maybe try Last Epoch or No Rest for the Wicked? They aren't perfect and nothing will ever be Diablo 2, but I feel like they're decent.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 6 points 4 months ago

Unfeasible... For whom? Certainly it isn't the players' ability to have fun.

[-] Fades@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

Fuck live service games, I’ve played enough for a lifetime. No more

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2024
127 points (100.0% liked)

Games

16697 readers
532 users here now

Video game news oriented community. No NanoUFO is not a bot :)

Posts.

  1. News oriented content (general reviews, previews or retrospectives allowed).
  2. Broad discussion posts (preferably not only about a specific game).
  3. No humor/memes etc..
  4. No affiliate links
  5. No advertising.
  6. No clickbait, editorialized, sensational titles. State the game in question in the title. No all caps.
  7. No self promotion.
  8. No duplicate posts, newer post will be deleted unless there is more discussion in one of the posts.
  9. No politics.

Comments.

  1. No personal attacks.
  2. Obey instance rules.
  3. No low effort comments(one or two words, emoji etc..)
  4. Please use spoiler tags for spoilers.

My goal is just to have a community where people can go and see what new game news is out for the day and comment on it.

Other communities:

Beehaw.org gaming

Lemmy.ml gaming

lemmy.ca pcgaming

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS