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Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights. In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Large language models such as ChatGPT are some of the most energy-guzzling technologies of all. Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

Additionally, as these companies aim to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, they may opt to base their datacentres in regions with cheaper electricity, such as the southern US, potentially exacerbating water consumption issues in drier parts of the world.

Furthermore, while minerals such as lithium and cobalt are most commonly associated with batteries in the motor sector, they are also crucial for the batteries used in datacentres. The extraction process often involves significant water usage and can lead to pollution, undermining water security. The extraction of these minerals are also often linked to human rights violations and poor labour standards. Trying to achieve one climate goal of limiting our dependence on fossil fuels can compromise another goal, of ensuring everyone has a safe and accessible water supply.

Moreover, when significant energy resources are allocated to tech-related endeavours, it can lead to energy shortages for essential needs such as residential power supply. Recent data from the UK shows that the country’s outdated electricity network is holding back affordable housing projects.

In other words, policy needs to be designed not to pick sectors or technologies as “winners”, but to pick the willing by providing support that is conditional on companies moving in the right direction. Making disclosure of environmental practices and impacts a condition for government support could ensure greater transparency and accountability.

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[-] paf0@lemmy.world 133 points 3 months ago

Yes it does, and wait until you hear about literally every other industry.

[-] bolexforsoup 127 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)
[-] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 37 points 3 months ago

Cryptocurrencies have no real world applications. AI does.

[-] bolexforsoup 37 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)
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[-] index@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 months ago

You are on lemmy, a decentralized and open platform. Cryptos are to money what lemmy is to their centralized and proprietary counterpart.

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[-] BrianTheeBiscuiteer@lemmy.world 28 points 3 months ago

Guys guys! There's room for all of us to eat our fair share of natural resources and doom the planet together!

[-] UraniumBlazer@lemm.ee 14 points 3 months ago

But no, AI bad AI bad AI bad AI bad lalalaa I can't hear you AI bad /s

[-] SacredHeartAttack@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

Seems like you’re hearing it perfectly, but not listening.

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[-] 0ptimal@lemmy.world 115 points 3 months ago

There are layers of wrong and stupid to this article.

Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights.

"The cloud" accounts for something like 80% of the internet across the entire planet. I'd be curious what 80% of transportation infrastructure would end being in comparison... no takers? We're only comparing to (some) flights instead of, I dunno, the vast bulk of our fossil fuel powered transport infra?

In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Oh no, the most popular song in the world used the same amount of energy as 40k homes in the US. The US probably has something in the range of a hundred million homes. The efficiency of computing equipment increases by a sizable percentage every single year, with the odds being good the same data could be served at 1/20th the cost today. So why aren't we talking about, say, heat pumps for those homes? You know, since they're still using the same amount of energy they did in 2018?

...about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3... Additionally, as these companies aim to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, they may opt to base their datacentres in regions with cheaper electricity, such as the southern US, potentially exacerbating water consumption issues...

What is this idiocy? You realize that a chip fab uses something to the tune of ten million gallons of water per day, right? Ten million. Per day. I'm not even looking at other industrial processes, which are almost undoubtedly worse (and recycle their water less than fabs) - but if you're going to whine about the environmental impact of tech, maybe have a look at the manufacturing side of it.

Furthermore, while minerals such as lithium and cobalt are most commonly associated with batteries in the motor sector, they are also crucial for the batteries used in datacentres. The extraction process often involves significant water usage and can lead to pollution, undermining water security. The extraction of these minerals are also often linked to human rights violations and poor labour standards.

Man, we're really grasping at straws here. More complaining about water usage, pollution, water security, labor standards, human rights violations... wait, were we talking about the costs of data centers or capitalism in general? Because I'm pretty sure these issues are endemic, across every industry, every country, maybe even our entire economic system. Something like a data center, which uses expensive equipment, likely has a lower impact of every single one of these measures than... I dunno... clothes? food? energy production? transport? Honestly guys, I'm struggling to think of an industry that has lower impact, help me out (genuine farm to table restaurants, maybe).

There are things to complain about in computing. Crypto is (at least for the time being) a ponzi scheme built on wasting energy, social media has negative developmental/social effects, etc. But the environmental impact of stuff like data centers... its just not a useful discussion, and it feels like a distraction from the real issues on this front.

In fact I'd go further and say its actively damaging to publish attack pieces like these. The last few years I didn't drive to the DMV to turn in my paperwork, I did it over the internet. I don't drive to work because I'm fully remote since the pandemic, cutting my gas/car usage by easily 90%. I don't drive to blockbuster to pick out videos the way I remember growing up. The sheer amount of physical stuff we used to do to transmit information has been and is gradually all being transitioned to the internet - and this is a good thing. The future doesn't have to be all bad, folks.

[-] Heliumfart@sh.itjust.works 46 points 3 months ago

Thank you. The 700000 litres in particular pissed me off.. that's a 9 meter cube. Whoopdie doo

[-] SuperSpruce@lemmy.zip 27 points 3 months ago

For comparison, a single hydraulically fractured oil well uses over 100 times as much water.

[-] Spedwell@lemmy.world 20 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The reason the article compares to commercial flights is your everyday reader knows planes' emissions are large. It's a reference point so people can weight the ecological tradeoff.

"I can emit this much by either (1) operating the global airline network, or (2) running cloud/LLMs." It's a good way to visualize the cost of cloud systems without just citing tons-of-CO2/yr.

Downplaying that by insisting we look at the transportation industry as a whole doesn't strike you as... a little silly? We know transport is expensive; It is moving tons of mass over hundreds of miles. The fact computer systems even get close is an indication of the sheer scale of energy being poured into them.

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[-] wewbull@feddit.uk 70 points 3 months ago

So... Absolutely need to be aware of the impact of what we do in the tech sphere, but there's a few things in the article that give me pause:

Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

  1. "Could". More likely it was closed loop.
  2. Water isn't single use, so even if true how does this big number matter.

What matter is the electrical energy converted to heat. How much was it and where did that heat go?

Moreover, when significant energy resources are allocated to tech-related endeavours, it can lead to energy shortages for essential needs such as residential power supply. Recent data from the UK shows that the country’s outdated electricity network is holding back affordable housing projects.

Can you say non sequitur ?

The outdated network holding back housing is that it doesn't go to the right places with the capacity needed for the houses. Not that OpenAIUK is consuming so much that there's no power left. To use a simily, there's plenty of water but the pipes aren't in place.

This article is well intentioned FUD, but FUD none the less.

[-] 5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 3 months ago

700.000 litres also sounds like much more than 700 m³. The average German citizen consumed 129 litres per day or roughly 47 m³ annually. The water consumption of 15 people is less than most blocks.

Energy consumption might be a real problem, but I don't see how water consumption is that big of a problem or priority here.

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[-] hummingbird@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

“Could”. More likely it was closed loop. As I understand it this is an estimate, thus the word "could". This has nothing to do with using closed or open look water cooling. Water isn’t single use, so even if true how does this big number matter.

The point they are trying to make is that fresh water is not a limitless resource and increasing usage has various impacts, for example on market prices.

The outdated network holding back housing is that it doesn’t go to the right places with the capacity needed for the houses. Not that OpenAIUK is consuming so much that there’s no power left. To use a simily, there’s plenty of water but the pipes aren’t in place.

The point being made is that resources are allocated to increase network capacity for hyped tech and not for current, more pressing needs.

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[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 61 points 3 months ago

What is this even? Batteries for UPS in a datacenter wouldn't be a patch on even a few days of production of EVs, water isn't being shipped from "drier parts of the world" to cool datacenters, and even if it were, it's not gone forever once it's used to cool server rooms.

Absolutely, AI and crypto are a blight on the energy usage of the world and that needs to be addressed, but things like above just detract from the real problem.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 35 points 3 months ago

The water is because datacenters have been switching to evaporative cooling to save energy. It does save energy, but at the cost of water. It doesn't go away forever, but a lot of it does end up raining down on the ocean, and we can't use it again without desalination and using even more energy.

[-] everyone_said@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

That may all be true, but the amount of water used by these data centers is miniscule, and it seems odd to focus on it. The article cites Microsoft using 700,000 liters for ChatGPT. In comparison, a single fracking well in the same state might use 350,000,000 liters, and this water is much more contaminated. There are so many other, more substantive, issues with LLMs, why even bring water use up?

Edit: If evaporative cooling uses less energy it might even be reducing total industrial water use, considering just how much water is used in the energy industry.

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[-] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 60 points 3 months ago

Pass a carbon tax. Oh wait that would be too easy.

[-] Buttons@programming.dev 34 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It seems the people who are the most staunch defenders of capitalism and free markets are the most resistant to the capitalist and free market solution.

Clean air (or rather, air with normal levels of carbon) belongs to the public, and anyone who wants to take it away should pay the public.

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[-] QuadratureSurfer@lemmy.world 52 points 3 months ago

This article may as well be trying to argue that we're wasting resources by using "cloud gaming" or even by gaming on your own, PC.

[-] blargerer@kbin.social 21 points 3 months ago

Gaming actually provides a real benefit for people, and resources spent on it mostly linearly provide that benefit (yes some people are addicted or etc, but people need enriching activities and gaming can be such an activity in moderation).

AI doesn't provide much benefit yet, outside of very narrow uses, and its usefulness is mostly predicated on its continued growth of ability. The problem is pretrained transformers have stopped seeing linear growth with injection of resources, so either the people in charge admit its all a sham, or they push non linear amounts of resources at it hoping to fake growing ability long enough to achieve a new actual breakthrough.

[-] otp@sh.itjust.works 28 points 3 months ago

AI doesn't provide much benefit yet

Lol

I don't understand how you can argue that gaming provides a real benefit, but AI doesn't.

If gaming's benefit is entertainment, why not acknowledge that AI can be used for the same purpose?

There are other benefits as well -- LLMs can be useful study tools, and can help with some aspects of coding (e.g., boilerplate/template code, troubleshooting, etc).

If you don't know what they can be used for, that doesn't mean they don't have a use.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

If gaming’s benefit is entertainment, why not acknowledge that AI can be used for the same purpose?

Ah yes the multi-billion dollar industry of people reading garbage summaries. Endless entertainment.

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[-] uis@lemm.ee 47 points 3 months ago

Large language models such as ChatGPT are some of the most energy-guzzling technologies of all. Research suggests, for instance, that about 700,000 litres of water could have been used to cool the machines that trained ChatGPT-3 at Microsoft’s data facilities.

This metric doesn't say anything.

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[-] Red_October@lemmy.world 36 points 3 months ago

But it's okay, because now we can get wrong answers faster than ever, and we've taken human creativity and joy out of art.

[-] masterspace@lemmy.ca 14 points 3 months ago

We can solve entire new classes of problems that we never could before.

Your problems are with capitalism and how we distribute our resources, not with advancements in automation.

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[-] suction@lemmy.world 33 points 3 months ago

All that for glorified autocomplete

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[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 33 points 3 months ago
[-] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 33 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It is a little scary. Machine learning / LLMs consumes insane amounts of power, and it's under everyone's eyes.

I was shocked a few months ago to learn that the Internet, including infrastructure and end-user devices, already consumed 30% of world energy production in 2018. We are not only digging our grave, but doing it ever faster.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 26 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

The Sam Altman fans also say that AI would solve climate change in a jiffy. Problem is, we already have all the tech we need to solve it. We lack the political will to do it. AI might be able to improve our tech further, but if we lack the political will now, then AI's suggestions aren't going to fix it. Not unless we're willing to subsume our governmental structures to AI. Frankly, I do not trust Sam Altman or any other techbro to create an AI that I would want to be governed by.

What we end up with is that while AI might improve things, it almost certainly isn't worth the energy being dumped into it.

Edit: Yes, Sam Altman does actually believe this. That's clear from his public statements about climate change and AI. Please don't get into endless "he didn't say exactly those words" debates, because that's bullshit. He justifies massive AI energy usage by saying it will totally solve climate change. Totally.

[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

Frankly, I do not trust Sam Altman or any other techbro to create an AI that I would want to be governed by.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."

~ Frank Herbert, Dune

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[-] mlg@lemmy.world 32 points 3 months ago

Dunno about Microsoft and AWS but AFAIK Google has been powering all their data centers with "renewables" for a very long time.

I'm pretty sure many of these data centers have dedicated power sources due to the high consumption, and opt for things like hydroelectric due to cost per watt.

And at least there's a serious end product delivered, unlike crypto mining which wastes trillions of hashes to make a secure transactional network.

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[-] PanArab@lemm.ee 29 points 3 months ago

AI -and cryptocurrencies- use massive amounts of energy and the only value they produce is wealth. We don't get correct, reliable and efficient results with AI, and we don't get a really useful currency but a speculatory asset with cryptocurrencies. We are speeding into a climate disaster out of pure greed.

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[-] snooggums@midwest.social 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Despite its name, the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights. In 2018, for instance, the 5bn YouTube hits for the viral song Despacito used the same amount of energy it would take to heat 40,000 US homes annually.

Mixing and matching abstract measurements doesn't work when comparing two things.

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[-] ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago

This is what pisses me off so much about the climate crisis. People tell me not to use my car, but then microsoft just randomly blow out 30% more co2 for AI

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[-] 3volver@lemmy.world 20 points 3 months ago

the infrastructure used by the “cloud” accounts for more global greenhouse emissions than commercial flights

This comparison is bad. Commercial flights don't use electricity, they use jet fuel, pumping fumes directly into the atmosphere. I don't see a single complaint about HOW electricity is produced. I just read about how there's too much solar power in California. A serious disconnect in the logic blaming AI for pollution when we should be blaming the way we produce electricity.

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[-] Fades@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

if it's not crypto miners with GPUs it's AI, these narratives never really connect well with reality. /u/0ptimal wrote a great comment on this post: https://alexandrite.app/lemmy.world/comment/10355707

To no surprise, the other comments are full of laypeople that feel they understand the entire field they have never studied well enough to preach to others about just how useless and terrible it is, who also know nothing about the subject.

[-] Rooskie91@discuss.online 18 points 3 months ago

Love how we went from "AI needs to be controlled so it doesn't turn everything into paperclips" to "QUICK, WE NEED TO TURN THE PLANET INTO PAPERCLIPS TO GET THIS AI TO WORK!!"

[-] dinckelman@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

So when exactly is all of this going to stop? First we had town-scale crypto farms, that were juicing enough energy to leave other people with no electricity. Then we switched to NFTs, and the inefficient ever-growing blockchain, and now we're back to square one with PISS, and it telling people to put glue on pizza, and suicide off the golden gate bridge

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[-] trslim@pawb.social 14 points 3 months ago

Wow, AI really will kill us, just not in the way anyone imagined

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this post was submitted on 30 May 2024
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