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submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by DragonWasabi@monyet.cc to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

Obviously it was a good thing that it was banned, but I'm just wondering if it would technically be considered authoritarian.

As in, is any law that restricts people's freedom to do something (yes, even if it's done to also free other people from oppression as in that case, since it technically restricts the slave owner's freedom to own slaves), considered authoritarian, even if at the time that the law is passed, it's only a small section of people that are still wanting to do those things and forcibly having their legal ability to do them revoked?

Or would it only be considered authoritarian if a large part of society had their ability to do a particular thing taken away from them forcibly?

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[-] Nemo@midwest.social 46 points 7 months ago

No. Protecting human rights is not authoritarian.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 6 points 7 months ago

I agree, but technically it was both protecting human rights and taking away other human rights (to own slaves). Do you see what I mean?

[-] Nemo@midwest.social 33 points 7 months ago

Owning others is NOT a human right. It is a violation thereof.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

At the time it was a legal right that some humans had, even though it came at the expense of others' moral right (that most people now believe they had, including myself) to be free. Please tell me you understand this. I don't think owning others is a human right in a moral sense, even if it was a legal right for some back then. There is a difference between legal rights and moral rights, because legality is not the same as morality. Sorry if that sounds obvious but I think it's necessary to clarify in order to approach this question with understanding.

[-] Nemo@midwest.social 23 points 7 months ago

Yes, when we talk about human rights we mean as distinct from legal rights. No law can grant or take away a human right, it is inherent to the human condition.

You've shown that you understand the distinction but I'll point out as well that moral right is a third, distinct thing.

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[-] seaQueue@lemmy.world 11 points 7 months ago

Legal rights are not human rights. I suggest you go look up the definition of human rights, they're a separate concept.

A country or state passing a law that makes it legal to punch clowns in the face on Tuesday doesn't make that action a human right, it just means that country passes fucked up laws.

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[-] socialpankakemix 21 points 7 months ago

all I hear is you think humans have a right to own slaves

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

That's a weird assumption when I said it was good that it was abolished. Humans shouldn't have the right to own slaves is my belief. (But they did have that right at the time legally speaking). Or another way to put it, is that I don't think humans have the moral right to own slaves, even if they did have the legal right. This was a response to someone else telling me that banning slavery was an authoritarian decision. I just wanted to get clarification and try to understand it better.

[-] socialpankakemix 20 points 7 months ago

when you say banning slavery took away people's rights, that means you Believe owning humans is a right.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 8 points 7 months ago

They legally had that right at the time. I don't think they should have had that right, or that they morally have that right. I think we're talking about 2 different meanings of the term "right". In one sense (legally), they had the right, as in it was codified into law. That's not a belief as much as a fact. The part which concerns my belief is whether I think they should have had the right or if they have the moral right, which I don't. I hope that makes sense.

[-] socialpankakemix 9 points 7 months ago

if you don't believe they had the right to own slaves, then they had no rights taken away, if your saying they did have rights taken away then you are saying they had a right to own slaves.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 7 points 7 months ago

Do you agree that someone can theoretically have a legal right to do something bad (as in, be legally allowed to do it) without that being a good or moral right for them to have?

I think you're only believing "right" to mean one thing and one thing only, when I'm using it in a sense where legality and morality don't necessarily coincide (even if they do in other contexts, conditionally).

So when I say they had the legal right to own slaves, and that right was taken away from them, that isn't a matter of opinion/belief because that's factually what happened, but that doesn't mean that I think they had the right morally speaking, which is a different concept.

I hope this makes sense.

[-] socialpankakemix 5 points 7 months ago

any authority has no incentive to make laws that are moral, only to make laws that maintain the system. rights are not given to you by an authority they are something you have as a person and cannot be taken away only violated.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 7 points 7 months ago

Legal rights vs moral rights, that's the confusion.

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[-] jmcs@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 7 months ago

When we talk about human rights we usually talk about the "what", and talking about just the "what" leads to misconceptions like that. So the question is why we have human rights. And the formulation human right treaties take is some form of "Human dignity is inviolable", which means that all human lives are worth the same, and that value can't be diminished in any way. Human rights are then listed in order to protect that ideal.

When you consider this, it becomes obvious that owning humans can't be a form of the right to private property because it relies on some humans being above others.

That's also the reason why free speech doesn't include things like slander or ordering someone killed.

[-] livus@kbin.social 4 points 7 months ago

I think I see what's happening here. The missing piece of the puzzle is that there are 2 kinds of rights.

"Negative rights" = the right to not have certain things happen to you, aka freedoms. Eg freedom from being assaulted.

"Positive rights" = the right to do/have stuff.

In the case of enslavement, the negative right - to be free from being forced to work, owned, etc is a much more important right than the positive right to own property.

[-] rustyfish@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

At what point was owning slaves a human right? It could be a legal right, yes. But I am eager to see which fucked up, inbred, mouth breathing country thought making owning a slave a human right would be a good idea.

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[-] arthur@lemmy.zip 39 points 7 months ago

I think you are lost in the language. There are no absolute rights, in any legal systems. So any "law" necessarily restricts someone's "rights".

Therefore, you need to think about what "authoritarian decision" means, because if all law restricts someone's rights, all laws are authoritarian by your definition.

Also: terrible example to begin with.

[-] prototype_g2@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago

I was about the comment a similar thing.

If having a law that restricts one's ability to do something is "authoritarian" then any law is authoritarian, because laws, by definition, determine what behaviour is and isn't allowed within a society.

[-] zephr_c@lemm.ee 22 points 7 months ago

Authoritarianism is all about concentrating power around fewer people. That what authoritarianism IS. Giving more power to the least powerful people is always anti-authoritarian. Yes, there are always trade-offs, no they're not always as obvious as this one, but more power to more people is never authoritarian.

[-] PonyOfWar@pawb.social 21 points 7 months ago

No, it was anti-authoritarian, as it removed the authority slave holders had over their slaves.

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[-] erin 21 points 7 months ago

Authoritarian doesn't mean exercising authority. Banning slavery did exercise authority, of the law, over slave owners, but it was anti-authoritarian. It took power, and authority, condensed wrongly in the hands of a few and, in theory, distributed it to the many, however effective it actually was.

[-] Ziggurat@sh.itjust.works 19 points 7 months ago

As in, is any law that restricts people’s freedom to do something

The problem of this approach is that in that case you refuse any law. Even anarchist would agree that a stateless society need people to agree on common rules.

Speed limit ? restrict your freedom to do something, private property ? Restrict your freedom to go where you want, does restricting your freedom to commit murder feels authoritarian ?

Now what's more authoritarian ? having the state protecing your right to have slave ? Or having the state protecting people freedom by not letting someone enslave them.

[-] SteposVenzny@beehaw.org 15 points 7 months ago

It is literally removing authority.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 3 points 7 months ago

Removing a kind of authority of the people over other people, but wouldn't it be imposing an authority from the government upon the remaining slave owners?

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Natural language is inherently imprecise. You're going to have to add a contextual definition if you want this to have a single answer.

If making someone do something is always authoritarian, abolition is authoritarian to slavers and anti-authoritarian to slaves. If implementing a law with no checks and balances is authoritarian, it was authoritarian when Louis XIV did it, but maybe not in other cases. If a policy that upholds any kind of hierarchy is authoritarian, it's always anti-authoritarian.

[-] AndrasKrigare@beehaw.org 3 points 7 months ago

I would go further to say that if "making someone do something" is the definition, literally any action taken by any government is authoritarian. If a government did not make people do things, it would functionally cease to be.

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[-] Tartas1995@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 7 months ago

I think it is a bit unfair to give you shit for your question.

it is normal to confuse authoritarian system with restrictions of freedom. Because generally that is how it works. But not in this case...

Because it is the paradox of tolerance all over again. Technically it is authoritarian to ban slavery but it would be more authoritarian to allow it as people would own people... So on the scale of how authoritarian an action is, banning slavery is as anti-authoritarian as it gets and allowing slavery is as authoritarian as it gets. (Of course, a world without slavery and without any rules would be less authoritarian but... I think we know better than trying that with slavery)

I hope this helps in actually understanding the reason instead of being told what it is.

[-] ulkesh@beehaw.org 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It’s not at all unfair when instead of thanking people for their answers, they’re rewording what they have said to ask in a different way just to try to act like their hypothesis is right.

Playing Devil’s Advocate is one thing, taking the time to try to effectively say that people should think Lincoln was authoritarian because he removed a legal “right” is another.

The STAMP act was legal, and our ancestors rebellled and got a country out of it (among other things). Law does not make right. And that’s what the OP doesn’t understand. He’s using semantics to try to make up something that simply isn’t true.

Edit: And technically Lincoln didn’t change the law, the 13th Amendment did. Lincoln simply created a proclamation that slaves in most areas (note that it wasn’t all slaves everywhere in the states, deals were struck to omit some areas from the proclamation) are to be considered free because it was a way to help win the Civil War. It was both morally right, and a strategic move. If that is to be considered authoritarian, then every single executive order that presidents make should also be considered authoritarian. But again, it’s simply not true in our system of government (however plagued by dysfunction it is these days).

[-] livus@kbin.social 8 points 7 months ago

Your rights end at the point where they infringe on someone else's rights.

Like, it's my right to walk where I want but it's not my right to walk into your house. Because it's your right to own private property.

Secondly, authoritarianism is not about how many people the law affects. It's about style of governance.

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[-] i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca 8 points 7 months ago

This sounds like another version of the “definition of freedom”.

Is freedom being unrestricted from doing whatever you want? Or is it protection from people doing whatever they want that would otherwise injure you?

I guess I’d argue that banning slavery in the middle of a culture that embraces it is, in fact, authoritarian. Similarly, enabling slavery in the middle of a culture that rejects it is also authoritarian.

It gets more interesting when the population is split on what they want policy to be. I think Prohibition is a better comparison since it’s less emotionally charged.

Was enacting Prohibition authoritarian? Sure seems that way, even though it had a lot of support. Was rolling it back also authoritarian? The people who originally supported it and now see it taken away probably feel it’s authoritarian.

IMO as long as people are happy to argue with each other about basic definition of words, the answer to the original question is “it doesn’t matter”.

[-] Hackworth@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

This sounds like a semantic argument, so... definitions.

Authoritarian - 1) of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority

Slavery is blind submission. Forbidding authoritarianism isn't authoritarian. Kinda like how destruction of the self (suicide) cannot be selfish, despite what some will argue.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 7 points 7 months ago

Authoritarian is a very small portion of people made decision and control the majority, where in democracy the decision is made based on the majority.

Is the decision to end slavery a majority decision? Then it's democratic.

[-] DragonWasabi@monyet.cc 4 points 7 months ago

Thanks, I think this answers my question. Even if it was a majority decision, it seems intuitively like the government (and the majority of people) imposed some kind of authority over the remaining slave owners (who were in the minority), but I understand that generally such a decision wouldn't be considered generally "authoritarian" just because it used that authority, unless it was imposed upon the majority of people.

[-] Nemo@midwest.social 4 points 7 months ago

WTF, no. Democracies can be authoritarian. If they abridge rights or compel individuals to action, that's authoritarianism. Doesn't matter it 51 people out of a hundred think they can boss the the other 49 because they voted on it.

[-] Annoyed_Crabby@monyet.cc 2 points 7 months ago

That sounds just like what the losing side will say tbh. Brexit is bad, but it's a bad choice made by the majority, in that it's still a democratic process voted by the masses. Democracy is a system, it's the will of the people, not a moral alignment. It's democracy as long as the people affected by the result is there to vote.

Democracy can be authoritarian but then it will be called authoritarian, not democracy.

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[-] LoveSausage@lemmy.ml 6 points 7 months ago

Yes it's autharitarian to ban slavery. Kind like a revolution is autharitarian. Don't really get the people who don't want to impose , what ya gonna do? Ask nicely?

[-] kbal@fedia.io 5 points 7 months ago
[-] mo_lave@reddthat.com 5 points 7 months ago
[-] Crankpork@beehaw.org 5 points 7 months ago

No. A nation that allows slavery doesn't practice human rights. For human rights to exist they have to apply to everyone, which can't work if some people are considered property.

No amount of gotchas, or arguing semantics is going to make slavery okay, and the way you're replying to peoples answers makes me think you fundamentally don't understand the question.

[-] theywilleatthestars@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Significantly less authoritarian than slavery.

[-] shinigamiookamiryuu@lemm.ee 4 points 7 months ago

Enforcing an equal opportunity environment is only authoritarian if your definition of authoritarian is anything that challenges antinomianism.

[-] verdare@beehaw.org 3 points 7 months ago

I think you should pause to interrogate the statement “freedom to own slaves.” What do you think ownership is? Who enforces it?

If passing a law that takes away ownership is “authoritarian” in your eyes, what about the enforcement of ownership? Doesn’t the state enforcing property rights also take away certain freedoms? Not just with the obvious example of slavery, but in general.

[-] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 2 points 7 months ago

Maybe. I guess authoritarianism is good sometimes.

[-] Eol@sh.itjust.works 2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

This is kind of the base paradox of chaos and faith. If God is the universe and everything, and God is "right", then that makes good and evil equal. It's a paradox people don't think of when it comes to sovereignty and freedom. Both those things mean you would need to fight for survival, in turn one could not be "free" by modern governing terms. You get your "freedom" but that means you aren't going to have the military killing for you or your subsidized help. True freedom is not utopia. True freedom is a life of war and survival.

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this post was submitted on 18 May 2024
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