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Don't dare to question Gnome (lemmy.world)
submitted 6 months ago by woelkchen@lemmy.world to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
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I was wondering what happened to the proposal from a month ago....

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[-] stuner@lemmy.world 36 points 6 months ago

I understood Matthew's position as "this should be discussed in the Workstation WG first", not as a "no":

in favor of the process outlined above (tl;dr: talk to the Workstation WG, and if that does not come to a satisfying outcome, file a Council ticket for next possibilities).

Post

It also seemed more likely that they would promote KDE without demoting Gnome.

But was there a follow-up on that (e.g. in the Workstation WG)?

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

I understood Matthew’s position as “this should be discussed in the Workstation WG first”, not as a “no”

And later he said it's not up to the community but the Fedora Council which at least partially consists of unelected Red Hat-appointed people and all decisions need to be on a consensus-basis, so a single corporate-appointed person can veto everything. FESCO (Fedora Engineering Steering Committee) is democratic, Fedora Council is not.

[-] stuner@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

I'm not sure I follow... Did the Fedora Council actually take a decision?

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago

The Fedora leadership is elected the the community. Also most the community does not want to deal with KDE. KDE is great for power users and people who like customization. Outside of that most people want stability and simplicity both of which KDE is not.

The other issue is the installer and the enterprise. If Fedora switched to KDE by default then the downstream distros would need to as well as Fedora is the testing ground for RHEL, Rocky and Alma. I can't imagine anyone wanting to run KDE on a server or corporate workstation.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

The Fedora leadership is elected the the community.

"The Fedora Council is composed of a mix of representatives from different areas of the project, named roles appointed by Red Hat, and a variable number of seats connected to medium-term project goals." --https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/council/

Also most the community does not want to deal with KDE.

Too bad we can't know this for sure because the discussion and a vote was shut down. The leader was clearly afraid of the possible outcome. No need to "drop the mic" if it was actually so clear cut.

Outside of that most people want stability and simplicity both of which KDE is not.

Baseless claims.

The other issue is the installer and the enterprise. If Fedora switched to KDE by default then the downstream distros would need to as well as Fedora is the testing ground for RHEL, Rocky and Alma.

Wrong. Fedora switched to btrfs as well despite the fact that it's unsupported by RHEL. Outside the RH sphere of influence, openSUSE manages to offer Plasma equally next to Gnome even though Gnome is default in SLE.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

I can't imagine anyone wanting to run KDE on a server or corporate workstation.

While I generally agree that there's probably not much appetite among the distributions for switching default, this point seems weird. I don't see why KDE would be any less desired than Gnome in that segment.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago

Customization is usually the enemy of reliability and supportability

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[-] terminhell@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 6 months ago

To be fair, there is and has been a KDE spin. I can see an argument for gnome, as it's overall the simpler environment. Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 36 points 6 months ago

I can see an argument for gnome, as it’s overall the simpler environment. Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

They could make that argument then and not just close the topic by declaring it a trademark issue.

[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 34 points 6 months ago

Fedora is recognized as the Gnome distro, though. It really is a branding issue.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

Fedora is recognized as the Gnome distro, though.

Things could change. That why it was brought up for debate. The debate could have concluded that changing defaults is not the right move.

It really is a branding issue.

And what would be the trademark(!) issue? The default desktop edition is called "Fedora Workstation", not "Fedora Gnome", so the branding is not tied to Gnome in any way. Seems more like an attempt to kill a discussion where the popular vote might be undesirable.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The vote likely would of favored gnome. Fedora is enterprise oriented and focuses on being a new version of the stable enterprise. KDE changes very quickly and they do not fix bugs before introducing new features.

If anything the alternative would be xfce4 but that's not viable for other reasons.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

The vote likely would of favored gnome.

No need to kill it then. Obviously the Red Hat representative got cold feet.

Fedora is enterprise oriented and focuses on being a new version of the stable enterprise.

Fedora describes itself as a community-led distribution, not as a corporate beta test for RHEL: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago

The enterprise is part community. Rocky is part of the community.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Rocky is part of the community.

Rocky Linux is part of the Fedora community? WTF?

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago

What WTF? They are part of the community

[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 5 points 6 months ago

I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt in that they misspoke when saying trademark. Clearly it’s not that, but those nuances are not universally known.

And branding is not something up to popular vote. It’s, by definition, an image someone or some organization wants to project to the public. To them, they have spins for other DEs/WMs and that’s enough. And why wouldn’t it be?

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

And branding is not something up to popular vote.

The suggestion wasn't about changing branding. It was about changing one default, just like when PipeWire replaced PulseAudio or when btrfs was elected to be the default FS. The product would still be called Fedora Workstation and kept its trademarks, logos,...

To them, they have spins for other DEs/WMs and that’s enough. And why wouldn’t it be?

Who is "them"? Clearly not the Fedora community or the community-elected Engineering Steering Committee. The ability to vote on that was taken away from them by one person unilaterally declaring that. FESCO would have decided to just keep Gnome. Looks to me like that one person would not wan to take any chances that the community-elected committee might vote differently.

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[-] idefix@sh.itjust.works 24 points 6 months ago

I don't understand the simpler argument. Installing and using extensions and gnome-tweaks to change basic settings is not simpler. And I strongly dislike a large number of defaults.

With KDE Plasma, defaults make more sense to me so I barely have to change configuration. If I really need to, the setting is there and easily used.

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

Since KDE changed to dbl-click by default, the only thing I change is Numlock on boot. 10 seconds to fix, and I know it'll stay changed because KDE is allergic to removing user settings.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 5 points 6 months ago

KDE is not good for stability and control. It is consumer oriented instead of enterprise oriented.

There isn't anything wrong with the KDE spin. If you want KDE it is available and well supported.

[-] Holzkohlen@feddit.de 6 points 6 months ago

Wait are you saying is Gnome is better for enterprise environments cause it's harder for the users to mess things up? If so, yeah I can see that. It's perfect for the simple-minded. Not saying that all Gnomes are simpletons, just that I too would rather have some boomers Gnome.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago

Exactly

I am what you call a simpleton

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[-] puppy@lemmy.world 18 points 6 months ago

Simple defaults has been fedoras thing for a long time.

So has been KDE's for a long time now. Even more so in Plasma 6.

[-] Samueru@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago

Isnt fedora like the last distro that doesnt symlink /bin and /sbin to /usr/bin?

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[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 27 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Look, we knew Fedora wasn't going to drop Gnome. Gnome is almost entirely a Redhat project, it's there for the paying corporate market so it doesn't confuse the drones by offering "choices", and Fedora is the proving ground of any changes that might affect said drones. I can't even argue with the logic.

Lots of Plasma-Fedora distros out there, like the spin and Nobara/bazzite that frankly are better starting places for most power users anyway, since you don't have to get around the repo/codec issues yourself.

[-] woelkchen@lemmy.world 21 points 6 months ago

Look, we knew Fedora wasn’t going to drop Gnome. Gnome is almost entirely a Redhat project, it’s there for the paying corporate market so it doesn’t confuse the drones by offering “choices”, and Fedora is the proving ground of any changes that might affect said drones. I can’t even argue with the logic.

The project leader could just be honest about that instead of making BS up.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 points 6 months ago

Not to mention Fedora KDE from the Fedora project

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

Yah, that's what I meant by "the spin". Can't say I've used it recently, and I imagine it has the same lack of non-free repos as the parent, so the others are less trouble and work fine. Heck, Nobara's had V6 included for a few weeks now.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

When I installed F39, it at least promoted and made opting into the most reasonable nonfree repositories. So at least recently they've gotten a bit more practical on that situation.

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[-] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I'm glad Fedora comes with the most usable no-bs/out-of-the-way (in my subjective experience) DE by default. Yes I do run it with Tweaks and a few extensions, but otherwise I have no need for extensive customization for customization’s sake (which seems so many ppls problem with GNOME, smth that I couldn't find more irrelevant), since everything about its UI/UX is so intuitive. I understand if people don't like its opinionated workflow, but it's just right for me personally...

I don't get the proposal either way bc Fedora has always been the spearhead of vanilla GNOME and there is an official KDE spin iirc

[-] recarsion@discuss.tchncs.de 23 points 6 months ago

I don't really get what people mean when describing Gnome or any DE as "out of the way". I've never felt like KDE was "in my way".

[-] kureta@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 months ago

I really couldn't find a better way to describe how it feels to use gnome. I am used almost all tiling window managers through the years. I always got lost in configuring my setup. I know I didn't have to, but there was almost another step of optimization that was available to me. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, of course. I have been using gnome o arch for the past few years, a plank/dock extension, a system tray, and a clipboard manager. That's it, there is nothing to fiddle with, to distract me. It is entirely personal. I just can't stop myself from trying to optimize my desktop/workflow if there are still ways to optimize it. Before gnome I was using my WM/DE and then the applications necessary for my actual work. Now, the DE is "out of the way" and I just do what I actually have to do. But again, this is entirely personal.

[-] alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

This is very similar to my experience tho I have skipped most of my ricing/customization phase with Gnome bc I just didn't feel the need to do much about it bar a few extensions

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[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

Or you can run OpenSuSE which comes with one of the best Kde versions by default.

It's another enterprise type distribution that's rock solid. It also has a rolling version.

1lso it's based in Europe, which some see as a plus.

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[-] DriftinGrifter 3 points 6 months ago

the Gnome devs are undeniably metaphorically tweakers on heroin tho

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[-] gianni@lemmy.ml 14 points 6 months ago

I'm glad Fedora has GNOME as default. The KDE spin appears to be well-maintained enough for those interested to enjoy it.

[-] Lem453@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 months ago

Fedora atomic with kde (kionite) has been amazing on my laptop so far (recently moved from mint)

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[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 9 points 6 months ago

What proposal?

[-] synapse1278@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago

To make KDE Plasma the new default Desktop environment for future Fedora Workstation releases in place of Gnome.

[-] possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Yeah that was never going to happen

[-] Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago

Use Bazzite or Aurora if you want an amazing, Fedora Silverblue/Universal Blue-based KDE experience, it's much better than normal Fedora anyway

[-] SimplyTadpole@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 6 months ago

How does Bazzite differ from Kinoite? I use the latter but have been hearing about the former for a while now, and was curious what exactly sets it apart from what I use and what benefits I'd have switching to it.

[-] Andromxda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago

By default it uses KDE instead of GNOME, you have the choice though. It makes some stuff easier for new users. Bazzite is also optimized for gaming and in some areas tries to mimic the Steam Deck experience pretty closely. It also includes all the Universal Blue goodness like ujust (basically a collection of scripts that is very helpful for quickly installing and setting up various things on your system). It also includes some quality-of-life improvements in the Terminal. You could compare it to Nobara, but built on top of Fedora Atomic (Kinoite). Check out their website for more information: https://bazzite.gg/

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[-] mlg@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

I just wish their websites reflected to show all their available spins. It feels like you have to go out of your way to get to the spins site because the main page only shows Gnome.

I get that Gnome is RedHat's main thing, but like at least make a button that says "See other excellent DEs". The only thing they have is a button for alt downloads that shows stuff for net install and rawhide.

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this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
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