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submitted 6 months ago by LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/linux@lemmy.ml

Just got a steam deck and immediately checked out the desktop mode, and I was somewhat surprised to see KDE and pacman as opposed to GNOME and apt, I have nothing against the former though a strong preference for the latter, anyone know why Volvo went in this direction?

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[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 123 points 6 months ago

The popular opinion is that it was easier for them to get up-to-date packages that way.

My opinion: It's just what the people working on the Deck were using at the time themselves.

Other reason might be that they had SteamOS 2 based on Debian and probably had some problems with it that they could solve on Arch more easily.

[-] seaQueue@lemmy.world 79 points 6 months ago

Arch packaging is also significantly easier to work with in my experience. I've packaged for both for some years and I'll take the Arch build system over wrangling dpkg every chance I can.

[-] toasteecup@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

+1 to this. I built a few deb packages at a previous company. It was a solid packaging suite but good lord was it a pain to work through

[-] patchexempt@lemmy.zip 8 points 6 months ago

I feel like this is the answer. if you've ever had to maintain a build pipeline or repository for .deb or .rpm, it's not exactly pleasant (it is extremely robust, however). arch packaging is very simple by comparison, and I really doubt they'd need much more.

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[-] iknt@lemmy.ml 119 points 6 months ago

For KDE, Valve found it easier to work with KDE devs than GNOME devs.

[-] john89@lemmy.ca 11 points 6 months ago

Big surprise.

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Doesn't kde work on debian? I haven't used it on the desktop in ages, but that seems odd.

On second thought, they may not have the most up-to-date version. So maybe it's that.

And if steam could make a Qt client while they're at it...

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[-] seaQueue@lemmy.world 106 points 6 months ago

Gaming support is still very much a work in progress all up and down the software stack. Stable distros like Debian tend to ship older proven versions of packages so their packaged software can be up to 18mo behind current releases. The NTSync kernel code that should improve Windows game performance isn't even scheduled for mainline merge until the 6.10 kernel window in a few weeks - that's not likely to be in a stable Debian release for a 12-18mo.

TL;DR: Gaming work is very much ongoing and Arch moves faster than Debian does. Shipping 12-18mo old versions of core software on the Steam deck would degrade performance.

[-] TunaCowboy@lemmy.world 19 points 6 months ago

It's pretty common to use debian unstable as a base. stable is not the only release that debian offers, and despite their names they tend to be more dependable than other distros idea of stable.

$ awk -v k=$(uname -r) '/^NAME=/{gsub(/^NAME=|"/, "", $0);print $0,k}' /etc/os-release
Debian GNU/Linux 6.7.12-amd64
[-] dsemy@lemm.ee 21 points 6 months ago

In my experience, Debian unstable has been less stable than "pure" rolling release distributions. Basing on unstable also means you have to put up with or work around Debian's freeze periods.

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[-] deathmetal27@lemmy.world 81 points 6 months ago

As for why they adopted KDE, they probably discovered how hard it is to work with Gnome developers.

[-] Nyfure@kbin.social 77 points 6 months ago

Why would you ever need such a feature? Closed.

[-] deathmetal27@lemmy.world 27 points 6 months ago

I shared a green text recently that said just this lol

https://lemmy.world/post/15006352

[-] realbadat@programming.dev 14 points 6 months ago

Since the start. Forget working with them, it's a rough go to even try and communicate with them.

And that goes back to mailing list days, creating a personal grudge against Gnome so firm that I haven't used it since the early 2000s.

Thankfully there's KDE for my general use and a wide variety of lightweight options for other uses.

[-] Nyfure@kbin.social 6 points 6 months ago

Just saw it too :D

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 14 points 6 months ago

I remember in an interview talking about the Steam Deck and its controls, GabeN said (paraphrased) "What we learned from the Steam Controller is there needs to be zero learning curve. Players want to pick it up and understand it immediately."

Given that ethos, it's not difficult to understand adopting KDE over Gnome. Most of Valve's customers are coming from Windows, and KDE resembles Windows' UI, where Gnome resembles iOS after a stroke.

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[-] SGG@lemmy.world 62 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Games need to live closer to the bleeding edge than a lot of other software.

Also, for wine/proton, and the other customisations built into the deck, it makes sense to pick a starting point that is more built for customisation. By that I mean there was probably less things they needed to add or remove at the start.

As mentioned, it's also likely there was personal bias internally. But even that can be a valid reason as they need to be familiar/comfortable with the starting distro.

Not saying that Debian cannot do it, but doing it this way probably made valve's employees lives easier.

[-] john89@lemmy.ca 38 points 6 months ago

It was based on debian, but moved to arch.

I think they did it because honestly, arch is better for desktop-usage due to its rolling-release model.

Bugs in debian stick around forever.

[-] kuberoot@discuss.tchncs.de 17 points 6 months ago

I don't think that's a good point, since they make their own immutable images, so they can use whatever versions of software they want, and you don't normally get to update them with the rolling release

[-] pathief@lemmy.world 16 points 6 months ago

Yeah but what's the point of using Debian when you're going to have to manually package newer versions of a lot of software?

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[-] bigmclargehuge@lemmy.world 8 points 6 months ago

Yeah as an Arch user I disagree. Imo a handheld meant to be a plug and play system would hugely benefit from a stable OS with a laid back update schedule. You don't see PlayStation pushing constant updates the second BSD packages get new versions.

As others have said, Valve has their own immutable release system, so it doesn't really matter. In this case, the rolling release has even less to do with it. They likely chose Arch due to the up to date packages which benefit gaming.

[-] Nibodhika@lemmy.world 28 points 6 months ago

All of the things others have said are excellent points, I would also like to point out that if you go to the steam hardware survey and select Linux only you'll see that Arch is the most used distro (after SteamOS), and that was also the case when the Steam Deck was announced in July 2021 https://web.archive.org/web/20220806051441/https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

And from my personal experience there's a reason for that, other than the I use Arch btw meme, despite most ports having Ubuntu in mind, and despite Ubuntu being the more user friendly distro, games just work on Arch. It's a weird thing where gaming on all of my arch machines is very painless, but gaming on the Ubuntu ones is frustrating, there's always something not right, it feels like the machine is chugging, or the driver decides not to work, or the game shows a black screen, or prime decides not today, etc, etc. I admit this is personal experience, and others might have the exact opposite, and that this is kind of biased because as a general rule people who use Arch tend to be more knowledgeable about Linux than people who use Ubuntu, but from replying on several Linux forums it's generally people with Ubuntu that have problems with games and people with Arch usually report that "it just works" for them.

[-] sazey@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

Reminds me of the time I had a nvidia GPU laptop and was distro hopping like a rabbit on crack trying to find something stable. Surprisingly enough it was Arch that proved to be the most stable and what I ended up sticking to.

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[-] mactan@lemmy.ml 25 points 6 months ago

the deck isn't some server that needs > 100% uptime for years. Debian is poopoo for bleeding edge game releases, especially any alpha/beta/early access stuff

[-] mojo_raisin@lemmy.world 24 points 6 months ago

People shitting on Gnome sound like kids bitching that the free pizza shop doesn't offer your favorite hamburger.

Also, all this sudden Gnome hate all over Lemmy is trendy as fuck, being trendy used to mean you were a loser with no original style, I guess the capitalists turned it into "viral" and made it cool.

[-] lud@lemm.ee 12 points 6 months ago

Lol, typical Lemmy to blame everything on capitalism.

Gnome is just incredibly annoying to use. It's not a trendy thing to say, it's just my opinion.

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[-] john89@lemmy.ca 9 points 6 months ago

I see you're upset people don't like gnome.

[-] mojo_raisin@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago

I don't care what people like, I don't like people shitting on open source projects and dividing the community.

[-] john89@lemmy.ca 6 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Right.

You don't like that people don't like gnome. You care about what they like.

I, personally, think when we love something we want it to be the best it can be. Gnome devs seem to just be red hat employees who don't actually care about making a good DE, just doing the easiest work while [WONTFIX]ing anything that takes actual effort.

You don't even talk with gnome devs. You talk with red hat. They're employees first for a company owned by IBM.

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[-] brax@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago

Shitting on Gnome if you use a tiled desktop manager is fair game.

Shitting on Gnome if you use KDE is just dumb

[-] loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 6 months ago

[...] anyone know why Volvo went in this direction?

So noone is talking about Volvo?

Other than that, SteamOS started with Debian and switched to Arch last minute before the steam deck released.

[-] oo1@kbin.social 19 points 6 months ago

Volvo probably trying to cast off their reputation for being "safe ang boring" and take on a more edgy image.
Ditching Internal combustion in favour of steam power is also a major shift for them.

[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 6 points 6 months ago

Wasn't Volvo the company where some exec got run over when they wanted to demonstrate the automatic emergency stop feature? And all this after they gifted seatbelts to the world.

[-] azvasKvklenko@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago

In early Steam Deck showcase videos there were talks with Valve guys like Lawrence Yang, and IIRC they simply said that it is easier for them to build the system that way, not that they couldn’t continue using Debian.

I think the reason for that might be that Debian has pretty strict package and dependency policies and sometimes it’s not easy to put cutting edge solutions on top of the „stable” base, so they would end-up using unstable/sid anyway, which still isn’t ideal as there is some freezing happening every now and then. Also Debian packaging system feels quite dated and strict comparing to PKGBUILD format, and it’s simply easier to build custom packages, having single build instruction file is super convenient and unlike with Debian at times, replacing whatever core system packages without breaking half of the dependency tree is usually easily doable on Arch.

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[-] uzay@infosec.pub 16 points 6 months ago

Another point for KDE might be that it works much better on a small screen that may be partially obscured by an overlaid keyboard. I used Bazzite Gnome for a while on the Steam Deck and I much preferred Plasma on there after switching back, despite using Gnome on my main system.

[-] D_Air1@lemmy.ml 10 points 6 months ago

For the KDE part, something I haven't heard most people mention is the wayland support and how fast they are to pioneer and implement new protocols. DRM leasing is the reason why Gnome can't do VR games and I forget why they wouldn't implement it, but the why doesn't really matter for a company focused on gaming. There are quite a number of protocols that have followed this same story with Gnome.

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[-] Zeppo@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago

I assume because it’s more customizable.

[-] warmaster@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Arch gets faster driver updates, KDE is faster at developing Wayland protocol implementations.

Edit: Valve gets their desired stability by turning Arch into a point release distro through image based releases. And, the system is practically unbrickable since it's immutable. So, in summary it's the best of both rolling release and point release models. By best, I mean for gaming.

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[-] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

I suspect KDE because most PC gamers are Windows users and KDE is closer to that while Gnome is closer to macOS (both in design and being restrictive).

I believe SteamOS is also immutable and uses a rolling release model. It’s probably logical to make a custom version of Arch. They can make it immutable and still get the latest packages. Fedora Silverblue (or another immutable Linux distro) wouldn’t be as quick to release packages and was probably in alpha when the decision was made.

[-] Bagel5941@aussie.zone 12 points 6 months ago

I suspect KDE because most PC gamers are Windows users and KDE is closer to that while Gnome is closer to macOS (both in design and being restrictive).

For what it's worth, when I moved from macOS to Linux I found that KDE Plasma customisation made it less frustrating to get the appearance and multitouch gestures closer to what I was missing on a Mac.

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this post was submitted on 04 May 2024
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