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[-] Drinvictus@discuss.tchncs.de 81 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Downvote me into oblivion but Kagi ain't shit. It's a glorified Google frontend. The author is right that the web is filled with AI generated articles and fake reviews and lists but Kagi is not immune to this enshittification.

I even tried the same query the author was bitching about. Here is Kagi's first two links for top 10 air purifiers. Notice how the first result is a BS website called top10.com and the second one is one of the "fake review" websites .

And here is Google's. First result is Wirecutter, and this might be subjective but I trust Wirecutter reviews on most things.

Rest of the Google results are exactly what the author was mentioning. But Kagi was no different.

So $10/month to get the same shit? No thank you. I agree that Google turned to shit compared to what it was but it is still the best search engine out there. Now if the article was about privacy concerns then they would have a point. Which is what Kagi is all about anyway. So let's stop the fucking act.

[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 39 points 1 year ago

I pay nothing for running SearXNG locally on my machine.

[-] Drinvictus@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 year ago
[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 11 points 1 year ago

The nice thing is that I can customize it however I like too; change weights, choose which engines to pull from always, or even from search to search; so I'm not getting cruft.

SearXNG always rearranges the crap most engines serve to the bottom without fail.

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[-] Atemu@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago

Your search results look very different to mine:

Did you disable Grouped Results?

All the LLM-generated "top 10" listicles are grouped into one large block I can safely ignore. (I could hide them entirely but the visual grouping allows for easy mental filtering, so I haven't bothered.) Your weird top10 fake site does not show up.

But yes, as the linked article says, Kagi is primarily a proxy for Google with some extra on top. This is, unfortunately, a feature as Google's index still reigns supreme for general purpose search. It absolutely is bad and getting worse but sadly still the best you can get. Using only non-Google indices would just result in bad search results.
The Google-ness is somewhat mitigated by Kagi-exclusive features such as the LLM garbage grouping.

What Google also cannot do is highlighted in my screenshot: You can customise filtering and ranking.
The first search result is a Reddit thread with some decent discussion because I configured Kagi to prefer Reddit search results. In the case of household appliances, this doesn't do a whole lot as I have not researched trusted/untrusted sources in this field yet but it's very noticeable in fields like programming where I have manually ranked sites.

Kagi is not "all about" privacy. It's a factor, sure but ultimately you still have to trust a U.S. company. Better than "trusting" a known abuser (Google, M$) but without an external audit, I wouldn't put too much wight into this.
The index ain't it either as it's mostly Google though sometimes a bit better.
What really sets it apart is the features. Customised ranking aswell as blocking some sites outright (bye bye pinterest and userbenchmark) are immensely useful. So are filtering garbage results that Google still likes to return.

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[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wouldn't use "air purifier" as a metric, since it was already a big public story that surely any search engine that's even half paying attention would have made sure the results for are good. Probably some other consumer good is better for an un-preannounced test run.

(Also I'm not sure that searching "top 10 air purifier" and complaining that you got a top result of top10.com/air-purifiers and that's not what you wanted makes a ton of sense. FWIW, I did try "air purifier" just out of curiosity and saw a very clear result that DDG had the best results, Google second, and Kagi third.)

I repeated it for "good wireless router" and saw different results; for them, the outcomes were fairly similar with Kagi somewhat better (returning Wirecutter as the top result, and an obselete Stack Exchange answer as the 2nd, which okay it's not right but I get where you're coming from sir), and Google and DDG as secondary (returning PCMag and CNet at the top and Wirecutter only further down below).

[-] thejevans@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

I searched both Cory Doctorow's post and the linked 404media article in his post for "air purifier" and found nothing. What author are you referencing?

[-] AnonStoleMyPants@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 year ago

Dunno, I got entirely different results. Reddit, homeairguides, forbes, a bunch of listicles like consumerreports, wired, ny times, cnet and whatnot, and other websites.

[-] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 42 points 1 year ago

I'm still steering clear from Kagi after how they handled criticism after they started including Brave's index

[-] Atemu@lemmy.ml 27 points 1 year ago

That whole situation was such an overblown idiotic mess. Kagi has always used indices from companies that do far more unethical things than committing the extreme crime of having a CEO who has stupid opinions on human rights.
I 100% agree with Vlad's response to this whole thing and anyone who thinks otherwise should question what exactly it is they're criticising.

I don't like Brave (super shady IMHO) and certainly not their CEO but I didn't sign up for a 100% ethically correct search engine, I signed up for a search engine with innovative features and good search results. The only viable alternatives are to use 100% not ethically correct search indices with meh (Google) to bad (Bing, DDG) search results. If you're going to tell me how Google and M$ are somehow ethical, I'm going to have to laugh at you.

The whole argument amounts to whining about the status quo and bashing the one company that tries anything to change it. The only way to get away from the Google monopoly is alternative indices. Yes those alternatives may not be much more ethical than friggin Google. So what.

[-] FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can't really engage as a consumer without enabling shitty practices on some level, and that's particularly true of electronics.

The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.

It's not just Amazon or Nestle. You might as well criticize someone for breathing because unethical consumption, on some level, is inevitable, particularly so if you live in a capitalist country.

I use Brave because its ad block feature works better than the others I've tried, plain and simple.

But, by all means, people can still be as holier than thou as they like.

[-] noodlejetski@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

The phone you're using to access Beehaw? Assembled by child labor or wage slaves somewhere in Asia. Even if you assembled it yourself, the parts were manufactured unethically.

which is one of the reasons why I own a Fairphone.

and sure, you can't avoid all bad choices, but everyone draws a line somewhere. and when a techbro makes a techbroy post about how eVErYThiNg iS pOLiTiCiZeD ThESe dAyS and how that's supposedly stopping innovation, because people like me don't want him to work with a guy with a history of opposing our rights, then I stop having confidence in him and cancel my subscription because I don't want to support him financially anymore.

[-] FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Don't get me wrong. I do the best I can to be ethical in my choices, but it's just a pet peeve of mine to see people behaving in a holier-than-thou when it's simply impossible to achieve what they're pretending to achieve.

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[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I genuinely won't even use Brave indexes on my SearXNG instance; I have the engines disabled. My search quality has not suffered; as most of my results end up being DDG or Yahoo anyways; and Brave was only ever duplicating results from other engines anyways.

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[-] greysemanticist@lemmy.one 29 points 1 year ago

One of my best monthly expenses. I also appreciate being able to block low-quality domains from my search results.

[-] fwygon@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

I can do everything Kagi does for free...using SearXNG.

[-] kandykarter@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

How do you duplicate this feature in SearXNG? https://help.kagi.com/kagi/features/website-info-personalized-results.html

It's basically the major thing keeping me with Kagi.

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[-] Imprudent3449@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

I am fucking sick of monthly subs... Happily pay for kagi. It's really great at just getting you the results you need sorted right at the top.

[-] Danterious@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 1 year ago

If kagi is just an aggregate of other search engines why not just use a searx instance instead? Its open source and customizable.

[-] kandykarter@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago

SearXNG

I'd consider it if they had some of the features Kagi has like raising/lowering/pinning/excluding certain websites from results, but every time I try it it still feels very light on features.

[-] Steve@communick.news 6 points 1 year ago

Because it's not just that.

[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 1 year ago

I started using Kagi a few months before $10 became unlimited queries.

When I first switched I'd still, occasionally, swap back to google using bangs because I had to unlearn all the hacks I had to make Google turn up useful things. Now I can't go back, Google is unsable without those hacks. Its barely usable with them.

Plus Kagi has a "fediverse forum" lens that lets me search Lemmy much more effectively than Lemmy's search.

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[-] millie@beehaw.org 18 points 1 year ago

Okay, but it doesn't know where I am. When I type 'dunkin', Google doesn't just know I want hours for a dunkin donuts, it knows which two or three stores I'm probably looking at hours for and it does it without me having to specify.

If I'm looking stuff up on my phone or just want a quick answer, I actually do want the context of all that data on me. I like that when I type the word 'glamour' it knows I'm probably thinking of the bard subclass, and that when I type 'Conan' it knows I probably mean Exiles, not O'Brien. I mean like, I know it doesn't know these things, but it fills in that gap much faster.

I do like the way their search is layed out for doing something more complex, though. It really is a better designed search engine, but I feel like a search engine is the one place I want data collection of some kind, literally because it benefits me.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 6 points 1 year ago
  1. On Kagi you type ‘Dunkin’ and then click ‘maps’
  2. I want to see a screenshot of your ‘glamour’ and ‘Conan’ searches working the way you’re describing
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[-] Zworf@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

10 bucks is too much though for a search engine, at least for me. Especially now that I use LLMs to replace most of the usecases of web searches.

I never used Google much anyway the last few years, I use duckduckgo which isn't quite as bad as google is now. Yeah I know it's just microsoft bling with a lick of paint but they didn't enshittify as much as google. But $10 + VAT is just a lot of money in Spain.

Maybe I'll try the $5 plan though, I never come even close to 300 searches a month anyway.

Edit: SearXNG sounds much better actually, thanks!! <3

Edit2: I installed SearXNG and love it <3 Really thanks for the tips here.

[-] greysemanticist@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

This is a useful take: I too will use LLMs for search-- but not for search for journal articles with data and evidence. LLMs too easily confabulate these.

LLM-as-search is fantastic when you want a no-bullshit statistical result for what you're looking for when you're wanting an overview or interactive tutorial.

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[-] thejevans@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

I use Kagi, stract, and a self-hosted searx-ng instance. Kagi is so well polished that it's what I use most of the time, but I keep an eye on the other two and continually ask myself if I'm ready to drop Kagi to get away from financially supporting Google and Microsoft.

[-] anothermember@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Remember the first time you used Google search? It was like magic. After years of progressively worsening search quality from Altavista and Yahoo, Google was literally stunning, a gateway to the very best things on the internet.

No, I'm not having that! That's rewriting of history. I remember when Google came out, it was pretty much as good as Altavista and no more. It had the additional appeal that it looked (for the time) unique and fresh and had a weird name, I remember getting my friends to try this "weird new search engine that might someday beat Altavista" but it never revolutionised anything in terms of search results at the time.

Also Altavista was not getting progressively worse, I still remember the days when you could type a simple dictionary word into a search engine and have it return 0 results. Altavista is what changed that, not Google.

[-] bitwolf@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago

I remember the competition on speed. And Google publishing the response time on the results page as a way to showcase it's speed over the competitors.

[-] bloup@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I personally have not found Kagi’s default search results to be all that impressive, contrary to what most users seem to feel. I don’t know. When ddg and Google fail me, I will try Kagi and I think maybe only once or twice has it actually made finding what I’m looking for any easier.

I will mention though, you can do a lot of personalization on the results unlike other engines. So maybe if I took the time to customize, I might feel differently.

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[-] vhstape@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago

My issue with Kagi is that it relies on aggregate results from other search engine indices

[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 1 year ago

So do DDG and a lot of other search engines. In addition to the time and cost of running a spider and maintaining a database (for little to no technological benefit these days), a lot of server admins will block crawlers that aren't googlebot or msnbot/bingbot.

[-] Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 7 points 1 year ago

It has its own index in addition to aggregating results.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 5 points 1 year ago
[-] vhstape@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 1 year ago

I don't get the impression that Kagi intends to compete with major search engines. It is clearly marketed toward privacy-focused, tech-minded individuals. You can take that one of two ways. Either you are frustrated with the erosion of search engine quality due to advertising, or you disagree with the predatory practices such as data mining that comes along with such advertising. In both cases, the only real way to signal to major search engines that you disagree with these practices is to stop using their services (including their APIs).

For example, I have been using DuckDuckGo for decades. At first, I had to compromise search result quality, but now it has enough users and support that results are on-par with the likes of Google.

I do not think that Kagi is bad or that people should not use it. It simply isn't for me, because it does not actually address the reasons I do not use search engines like Google.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I think it's not that complicated -- Kagi's search results are just far more useful. I think it's marketed at people who want good search results, not anything dealing with privacy (although, Kagi doesn't log your searches, so it's fully private for most everyday definitions) -- your viewpoint for you makes perfect sense to me and sure I respect it, but I don't think it's right to say that people are linking their credit cards to do a have-to-be-logged-in-first search on Kagi chiefly for reasons of privacy focus.

(I just tried the same experiment Doctorow tried, of searching for something that I'd been unable to find through Google, and Kagi did the same thing for me that it did for him (i.e. found it). That's actually not important enough for me to pay for Kagi, but "Google is shit now" is no fringe opinion and it's pretty easy to verify that Kagi does in practice work markedly better.)

[-] yads@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

Thanks for sharing this. Going to try it out. I honestly haven't had as much of an issue with Google search lately, but willing to try something new.

[-] darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Cory Doctorow is a smart guy, and has some great takes. But he also pays for Xitter Blue (or whatever they call it) so do with that info what you will.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What are you talking about, I don't see any tick. Are you talking about the big text that says "NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK"?

Maybe I am missing something but it kinda looks like Lemmy is engaging once again in a favorite activity, finding reasons why someone is "problematic" whether true or not, because that's more fun than just engaging in reasonable posting and commenting and letting people be worth listening to sometimes

[-] drwho@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

That's pretty much the entire Internet these days.

[-] mozz@mbin.grits.dev 5 points 1 year ago

It's honestly very perplexing to me

Like why did 5 people upvote just pure combative nonsense. What did they see in it that led them to say "yeah this resonates with me, fuck this guy for objectively false reasons! I support this message!"

It's just confusing

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[-] wahming@monyet.cc 10 points 1 year ago

Source? I find that doubtful considering his nick is "Cory Doctorow NONCONSENSUAL BLUE TICK"

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 1 year ago

I've wanted to test out Kagi for some time, but I don't really do a hell of a lot of deep-dive searches anymore. I mostly passively read a combination of RSS, stuff I see on Lemmy, and videos that I still watch on the old site while not logged in. And some YouTube stuff.

When I do search for something, it's typically something that I hear about in a podcast and I wanna know more and in the moment I just use my default (goog). I'm not thinking of Kagi cause I'm listening to something already and thinking about that.

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this post was submitted on 05 Apr 2024
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