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submitted 7 months ago by tkk13909@sopuli.xyz to c/196
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[-] NateNate60@lemmy.world 80 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't think private landlords are really that bad. Renting out your dead nan's house or buying a duplex to letting the other half is fine as long as you charge appropriate rent and treat your tenants well. In an ideal world, houses would not be investments but rather something that everyone can own and live in, but we're not going to get that by going cold turkey as some people are suggesting. Reform is slow and boring but usually works out better than trying to tear everything down at once.

The real problem is companies buying up an absurd number of units and hoarding the available housing stock while squeezing tenants and generally just being miserable landlords.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 68 points 7 months ago

Imo if you own more than the house you personally reside in, you can go to hell.

[-] Moghul@lemmy.world 29 points 7 months ago

Pretty sad to see this kind of attitude. The problem IMO is buying with the intent to rent, and companies owning too much property. I rent, but I don't think that if you inherit something you're immediately a bad person until you sell it. Or if you bought something while single, once you move in with a significant other you're a bad person. I wouldn't have a problem renting from people like this either. There needs to be % cap on company rentals, and there needs to be a cap on private properties owned, but I don't personally think the number has to be 1.

Owning more property and being richer than me doesn't make someone automatically a bad person. People nowadays can only see black and white. We're so frustrated and tired of dealing with shit that we can't empathize with fellow human beings. Not everyone is a "real estate investment firm".

[-] nikita@sh.itjust.works 10 points 7 months ago

Exactly. That kind of comment serves to divide and distract us and while we are busy fighting over these relatively tiny sums, the ultra rich are getting richer.

The solutions you propose make way more sense.

[-] Moghul@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'm sure there are major issues with that idea as well, such as creating a rigid structure of sale and rental.

For example here, politicians made it very difficult to get kicked out if you rent a place for more than 2 years. You basically have to agree to move out. All that did is make virtually all landlords only lease for 2 years because it's hard to get rid of a bad tenant after that. It's a great thing if you can get it, but it sucks to have to move that often.

If you limit the % property for rent in a city, maybe companies will build turbo shit apartments (or extremely expensive apartments) for sale, and decent apartments for rent. The monkey paw is strong.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 7 months ago

What possible reason does anyone have to own a second home other than to act as a middle man by renting it out? Fuck middle men. They help nothing but themselves.

[-] Moghul@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I gave 2 good reasons why someone would have a second home. If you mean purpose, not everyone who owns a second home rents it out, and not everyone who rents it out is doing it for fat profit.

My uncle owns 2 homes. One he bought with my aunt, and one he inherited. His brother lives in the second home for various reasons and his end of the deal is that he takes care of it. I have another uncle who bought a studio apartment with my aunt maybe 30 years ago, and they mortgaged a new apartment some years ago, when my cousin got too old to sleep in one room with them. They rent out the studio to college students for what I think is a fairly low price. One of them is now retired and they've got a good chunk more time to pay on that mortgage and prices have skyrocketed in their area. If shit goes south financially, they have a backup place to live in their old age.

I'm an immigrant myself and I can tell by the way prices are going here, I'm going to need to find a spouse to mortgage an apartment if I want to buy anything. I don't think anyone in those situations is some kind of monster for not selling me their second home.

I think a remote vacation home or cabin or whatever is also a legitimate reason to own 2 properties. I also think hotels and motels fall under owned property, and I think those are legit too.

Like I said, IMO the problem is with people hoovering up properties specifically to inflate prices and to make profit by doing nothing. It's rentseekers and bad landlords, not multi-home owners.

Edit: the relationships here read kinda weird. Both uncles are "by alliance", married into the family. Of course, they both share ownership of the stuff they bought with my aunts, but idk how the inheritance works, and I'm not gonna ask. The way it's phrased in the family is that he inherited that house in the countryside and his brother (which is like distant family to me I guess) lives there.

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[-] Jentu 18 points 7 months ago

No second helpings until everyone has grabbed a plate policy.

[-] humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 7 months ago

What if I find myself in a situation when I have 2 houses? How can I become a better person?

[-] B1naryB0t@lemmy.dbzer0.com 46 points 7 months ago
[-] SonnyVabitch@lemmy.world 30 points 7 months ago

What if it's a new couple of two homeowners who move in together, should they sell one property before the relationship solidifies?

What if the grandchildren are in secondary school when Nana dies, is the family allowed to hold on to this second property for the few years until the kids move out/in?

What if you accept a contract position in another town, should you be forced to sell and buy, or is it okay to rent out the home you have and rent another elsewhere?

My point is that there is nuance at the lower end of the scale, and the enemy is big corporations and landlords of massive portfolios.

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[-] humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 7 months ago

To whom? Greedy renting corp.?

[-] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 20 points 7 months ago

Bad Faith Arguments, LLC

[-] littletranspunk@lemmus.org 7 points 7 months ago

If that does happen then the one deserving of the guillotine shifts onto Greddy Renting Corp

[-] humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 7 months ago

Agree. But neither of us will be guillotined outside of wet leftists' dreams

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[-] MxRemy@lemmy.one 24 points 7 months ago

As an example of the problem, no one in my entire social circle has any hope of ever owning property, and many of us are just barely skirting homelessness. Unfortunately this is extremely common in the same world where some people own multiple homes. If you found yourself in that situation, I imagine the best course of action depends on where you live, but a good choice might be to convert your property into a non-equity low-income housing cooperative. There are lots of other options though, the main thing is just to get it into the hands of people who need it.

[-] Jimbo@yiffit.net 6 points 7 months ago

The only hope I ever have of owning property is my mum dying :(

And even then, she currently owns the property, not the land, so there's still land rent

[-] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Property is land. Do you mean that she owns the building?

[-] SonnyVabitch@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Leasehold is a type of property where you rent the land for a really long time (decades), and build your house on it. Every few years you extend the lease so it has no risk of running out. You don't know how much the landlord will charge you, or indeed if they extend, although there are some legal protections for leaseholders.

[-] Dippy@beehaw.org 4 points 7 months ago

Sell the house to another person.

[-] Blahaj_Blast 5 points 7 months ago
[-] PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 7 months ago

What if I have a secret family?

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[-] zazo@lemmy.world 51 points 7 months ago

establish 👏 tenant 👏 owned 👏 cooperatives 👏

[-] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 7 months ago

Eli5 can an apartment complex do that?

[-] zazo@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

Depends on your region, but in general if you can find at least 3 people you want to live with, you can apply to establish a cooperative.

Do note that securing a mortgage would probably be a bit harder than buying on your own, but with more people you can acquire a larger space and split the costs that way.

Fundamentally, it's unlikely it will be cheaper than buying outright - however you'll have a community of people to rely on if at any point you become temporarily unable to pay your installments, which can make it safer than self-ownership.

But the biggest plus comes when the mortgage is paid off, as then the coop can decide if you'd rather slash prices to include just bills, or keep the same monthly amount but put the extra towards a shared coop fund that can be used to convert more landlord owned properties into cooperative housing.

In my area - non-mortgaged coop properties have about 40% lower monthly payments.

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[-] the_crotch@sh.itjust.works 3 points 7 months ago

So condominiums essentially?

[-] jeremyparker@programming.dev 3 points 7 months ago

The idea is sound but for most places I've heard of (ie in my city), condos just pay a management company to do all the landlord stuff, so even as an owner, I still have to call some crabby woman when the roofers drilled a hole in my A/C and fight with her -- and then also fight with the roofers -- to get it fixed

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[-] neptune@dmv.social 46 points 7 months ago

IF yOu ArE ANtICAPiTaLIST Why dO yOU HavE A JOb? energy I'm getting from this post.

No, I don't think renting out your first home is a grave issue, but it's a snow flake in the avalanche for why housing is unaffordable. Housing is either a necessity that should be affordable, or an investment that grows and grows in value. Society has to pick one. And it would be obviously ruinuos for the status quo of housing to outpace inflation to continue.

[-] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 19 points 7 months ago

No single drop of rain believes it is responsible for the flood.

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[-] xlash123@sh.itjust.works 26 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

There are situations where it does make sense to rent or put a property up for rent. For example, if you are relocating temporary for a job or education, it would make a lot of sense to get a short term lease, rather than buy or stay in a hotel (depending on price, of course). An individual who know that a property of theirs won't be used for some time can then lease it out to this person. It's a win-win, as tenants don't deal with the process of closing or the responsibility of ownership, and the landlord makes some extra cash on the underutilized property.

However, the problem really comes down to when it becomes a business. Companies buy up large quantities of land and property and rent them out, allowing them to shift the costs of mortgage and taxes to the tenant while reaping the benefits of increasing equity. Furthermore, the amount of property for sale decreases, artificially lowering supply for housing to own. This drives up costs. As the company buys up more and more property, they also get to jack up the prices because of their local monopoly. In the individual landlords case, this wouldn't happen because they have to compete with the rest of the diverse market. So overall, prices go up for housing everywhere.

I see a few paths to a solution.

  1. Limit the number of properties a corporation/individual can lease and/or increase taxes exponentially. This prevents the ability to lease out tons of property, while still allowing businesses to own multiple properties as needed for actual work.
  2. Remove restrictions on single family only housing and residential zoning. This is mainly a US issue, but it would allow for denser housing options, increasing supply in places where that is currently impossible. It would also create more opportunities for economic growth, as placing residencies in areas with businesses reduces demand on cars and makes it easier to network with people.
[-] zarkanian@sh.itjust.works 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Robespierre: "You get the guillotine! You get the guillotine! You ALL get the guillotine!"

[-] RIP_Cheems@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Wasn't that the same guy who revolted against the french government, got they're heads cut off, and then got his head cut off?

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[-] nikita@sh.itjust.works 20 points 7 months ago

I think its a weird argument to say all landlords are evil because even if they were forced to sell their real estate properties, they would just put their wealth elsewhere. They would instead become shareholders or creditors.

The problem is more so in general with people that have a lot of wealth, regardless of how they choose to hold it.

And furthermore, the problem isn’t even with people that have a bit of wealth, it’s with billionaires. If we taxed those assholes properly then governments could just afford to build high rises which would drive real estate prices down.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 38 points 7 months ago

Landlords are unique in that they are entirely rent-seeking, ie they create no new value at all and seek to eternally gain income without losing any amount of ownership.

Billionaires are certainly the most excessive, but all Capitalists work against the Proletariat.

[-] AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world 26 points 7 months ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent

I really want more people to engage with the idea that the utter worst thing a person can do in a economic sense is "rent-seek". The IDEA of turn key businesses, investment properties, money for nothing means you are taking from someone else.

They've attempted to expand this downward into welfare, but that's a ridiculous canard that doesn't examine just how much money is being siphoned from the working class by people who leverage capital against them.

[-] nikita@sh.itjust.works 5 points 7 months ago

Thanks for the links. I understand these concepts better now.

By that definition shareholders are rent seekers too. They extract way more value from the company than they add to it. Except instead of making money through leasing, it’s through dividend collection, capital gains and share buybacks.

As for loan givers, you could argue their existence provides value because it gives people access to funds they wouldn’t otherwise have had, allowing them to purchase goods they wouldn’t have been able to. However, when the whole system is set up such that going into debt is a requirement then the service offered by the loan giver doesn’t really add that much value to society.

In fact, if loans weren’t so tolerated, the market or government would have been forced, at an earlier point in time, to do something to reduce the costs of things we purchase with loans like real estate, cars and education (in places where it isn’t free/cheap).

Instead, loans artificially increase the cost of things to the point where buying them without getting a loan becomes impossible. For instance, by increasing the amortization period of mortgages from 10 years to 20 years to 30 years, the price of a home increased such that now it is completely out of reach to people looking to buy property without a loan.

[-] pup_atlas@pawb.social 14 points 7 months ago

Wealth inequality is definitely a huge problem, but the issue with landlords is that they are artificially restricting the supply of, and price gouging an already incredibly limited resource that scene needs to survive. At least with food, someone else can always make more and sell it for cheaper, or you can decide to eat something else. But with how housing is now, it’s not uncommon for just a few companies to snatch up nearly all available houses in an area, and there’s only so much “I’ll just move a little farther out” before you are an unsustainable distance from your workplace. That isn’t true of hardly any other market.

[-] Krauerking@lemy.lol 3 points 7 months ago

Yeah, buying vegetables gives you the seeds to your own solution to hunger (to a minor degree and with caveats) but renting does nothing to give you the seeds to a house, especially if the rent is so high there is no practical way to save money.

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[-] riwo 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

i think the "who is getting the guillotine?" is malicious framing. i assume u just worded it that way because it sounds funny but it still has effect of making ppl more reluctant to voice criticism.

no landlords should be killed. their private property should be transfered to a public ownership model and portions of their financial wealth should potentially be seized. ideally all housing would be made public but as a transitionary step, at least private housing should be.

for your examples, since we currently dont have good options for simply making those houses into public property, with the peopl who previosly owned them getting dibs on living there, its fair for them to keep the houses as private property for a while, without living there. letting other people live there for the meantime is also a good idea. just let them live there for free, under the condition of keeping the house livable and paying for upcomming costs. maybe offer yourself as a hireable manager for the house, if you want to get moeny out of it. why should people have to pay you for using something you dont need, if thats not reducing the value?

and yes, i am aware that being ethical with ones private property is hard, because its discouraged by current policies and public mentalities, but that doesnt mean its something we shouldnt strive for, on an individual and grander social level.

[-] tkk13909@sopuli.xyz 7 points 7 months ago

I have literally seen multiple people here within the past few days making jokes about killing all landlords.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 months ago

Jokes != policy.

[-] riwo 3 points 7 months ago

oki, thats either really messed up or just ppl joking because they are mad, without actually believing it.

like when ppl say eat the rich they dont actually think rich ppl should be eaten

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[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 4 points 7 months ago

Except that it isn't malicious framing to some on Lemmy.

[-] Hikermick@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

How about buying a cheap house that needs a lot of work and renting out rooms to your friends so that all of you can have an affordable place to live?

[-] Eccitaze@yiffit.net 13 points 7 months ago

I think that's just called informally splitting a mortgage, homie

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[-] AI_toothbrush@lemmy.zip 4 points 7 months ago

Renting isnt the problem. If tou own two houses and an apartment and rent out them except the one youre living in that isnt really the problem. When a single person owns a whole city thats the problem. Most people rent out houses/apartments as a small passive income. If its your only form of income that means youre not really contributing to society. Youre getting money for an asset that already exists.

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