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submitted 7 months ago by danie10@lemmy.ml to c/technology@lemmy.world

The Android developer just published an updated landing page for Google Messages, showing off key features ranging from customization, privacy and security, and, of course, AI.

On this landing page, there are different sections for each feature set, including one for RCS. As spotted by 9to5Google, if you expand this list of RCS features and scroll to the bottom, you see a section on "Coming soon on iOS: Better messaging for all." That's no surprise: We've known Apple was adopting RCS since November. However, it's the next line that brings the news: "Apple has announced it will be adopting RCS in the fall of 2024."

Of course, this does not say a lot as it is "in the fall" which is anywhere over a couple of months, and Google has tried to embarrass Apple into making moves before. I suppose, though, there is the looming court case against Apple which is anyway keeping pressure on Apple. If it were not for the US court case, I would have guessed Apple may have pulled out after the EU had ruled Apple was not a dominant player in the market (although the EU case was looking more at interoperability with WhatsApp and others in Apple Messages).

Of course, with Apple actually including RCS now, they can probably argue that there is interoperability via RCS between their platform and Android too. It must be remembered that in many countries, like mine, SMS's are paid for so are very expensive to use for any form of chatting, and the costs go up exponentially when you text an international number.

I personally have quite a few issues with interoperability with Apple:

  • I still have AirTags from when I had an iPhone and I daily get the audio beeps warning me the AirTags are not connected (I use an Android phone and alternate between an iPad and an Android tablet)
  • I can't wait to sell my AirTags and get the new one's Google was working on that will interoperate with Apple, but supposedly Apple has been delaying building in that support into their devices (which Google already built into Android for AirTags in 2023)
  • Because I was on Apple Messages and my iPad still sometimes connects, I find a message on my iPad that arrived a week ago which I had not seen (I had Beeper which was solving this problem)

Apple is not at all dominant outside the USA, but it makes interacting with Apple users quite a pain, as Apple has gone out of their way to try to keep their users inside the walled garden.

See https://lifehacker.com/tech/google-just-revealed-when-apple-will-officially-adopt-rcs

#technology #RCS #Apple #interoperability

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[-] joyjoy@lemm.ee 44 points 7 months ago

modern features like E2EE

This is false. E2EE is not part of the spec. It's just a feature of Google's implementation, which Apple will absolutely not be using.

[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago

Incorrect. They’re working with the GSMA on a universal E2EE protocol. They mentioned that we should not expect E2EE in the first release of RCS on iOS.

It’s coming, but since they don’t want the proprietary thing Google has, and they want a standard, it’s coming later.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 7 points 7 months ago
[-] rikonium@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 7 months ago

I read about Apple looking to bring the spec up to par, but I suspect it has a higher chance of being a nothing-burger since carriers haven’t bothered with RCS and Google’s implementation is as controlled/proprietary as iMessage so it will be interesting to see how things go forward.

[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Apple and others have complained that Google was gatekeeping the RCS encryption plugin, and that it needed to be an open standard. Both Apple and Google are now contributing to and open encryption standard now, which should benefit lots of messaging clients.

That said, the PR folks said late last year that we should not expect encrypted RCS on iOS with release 1 of iOS RCS.

Google’s website is not incorrect. It’s just missing nuance and dates.

[-] brian@programming.dev 31 points 7 months ago

it's ironic with all this that Google fi messages on Android still doesn't support rcs without losing a bunch of other features

[-] BaroqueInMind@lemmy.one 8 points 7 months ago

What messaging app are you using, because I've been using RCS messaging for the past 5 years on Fi.

[-] brian@programming.dev 10 points 7 months ago

Google messages. Here is the support article on the tradeoffs: https://support.google.com/fi/answer/6188337

[-] _thebrain_@sh.itjust.works 6 points 7 months ago

That is using messaging for the web through Google Fi. But there is little reason to do that now as Google messages the app itself can be used through messages.google.com. there are several stand alone computer applications that use the portal as well (messages in the windows store, messages or google-messages package in most distros. Dunno about Mac. Either way, instead of fi being the backend, the app connects directly to your PC. You just have to pair your phone using the app directly.

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[-] Evilcoleslaw@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

Also Google Voice doesn't support RCS at all.

[-] smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 7 months ago

Better yet - Android refuse to support RCS natively in the operaring system itself like it does with SMS since Android ~10.

[-] baseless_discourse@mander.xyz 30 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Yeah, I am not using it until it comes to google free android. How is it "better messaging for all" when you are forced to use google's proprietary implementation on android?!

Just keep using signal.

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 11 points 7 months ago

The "better" though is over plain text SMS message which we have to pay per message. I use Signal but less than a handful of friends use it so it does not help me much on that front.

[-] IronKrill@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago

Where I am the situation is flipped: I get infinite SMS, but have to pay for data i.e pay per message on RCS.

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[-] blackn1ght@feddit.uk 4 points 7 months ago

What are your other contacts using? They can't be stuck sending SMS and paying per message surely?

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 months ago

They're mostly using WhatsApp and I deleted all Meta-owned apps. So, yes if they want to reach me they need to send a text message as most apart from 5 or 10 have never bothered to install Signal, Telegram, SimpleX, Threema, Briar, Jami, etc that I am on.

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[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

Apple is not at all dominant outside the USA

Depends on the country. iOS has over 50% of the mobile market in more nations than you might realize. This is especially true for English speaking countries.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/iphone-market-share-by-country

[-] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 8 points 7 months ago

North Korea going over 80% on ios share was something unexpected.

[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

Probably at least 5 iPhones.

[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago

That's probably reported sales. The majority of phones in the country are likely Android phones smuggled over the northern border.

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[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago

So basically what everyone predicted when Apple said it would occur in 2024.

Major new features are always in the n.0.0 fall releases. No way this was going to be bundled with a late in life iOS 17 bug and security update.

[-] smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Then:
Being left behind because you don't use Apple approved device, operating system and proprietary app.

Now:
Being left behind because you don't use Apple or Google approved device, operating system and proprietary app.

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 months ago

RCS should not really be a proprietary app in the sense of a 3rd part installable app. It is normally carrier provided just like SMS works. On Apple the default SMS/Messenger is Apple's Messages app. On Pixel that is Google Messages and on Samsung phones they have their own one. It has a carrier hook and is apparently tied to the number.

[-] smileyhead@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

RCS should not really be a proprietary app in the sense of a 3rd part installable app.

But it is. SMS works via operating system exposing an API for developers for the phone modem interface. Google Messages is just an internet messaging app, just instead of using Internet standards like XMPP (from creators of Email and IP) it uses carrier's standards which are mainly made with carriers being required in mind.

If you don't believe me get a blocklist for all Google's IP addresses and you'll see Google Messages would stop working. Or just do anything with root account and Google server would stop allowing the app to work (https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/1/24087418/google-messages-blocking-rcs-on-rooted-android-devices).

[-] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

The implementation in the real world is a mess, especially because the carriers have basically outsourced implementation to Google rather than trying to actually implement it themselves.

Right now, Google controls the entire stack (mobile OS, specific app, service provider). Still, once Apple implements a service provider (and locks it to their own mobile OS and app), that should allow for an opportunity for another to set up their own service provider that interfaces properly with either Google or Apple servers. And then that service provider would be able to provide an interface for any OS, any app, through an open API.

I would advocate for the path forward to be truly federated RCS providers being able to operate at will, where the accountholder of any phone number could affirmatively choose which RCS service provider to use (akin to how a domain owner can configure their domain to use a specific server for email to that domain, whether it's self hosted or a cloud service provided by a big tech corporation like Google or Microsoft, or a smaller provider like Proton). Or at least, with number portability, let people choose small phone providers (like MVNOs) that compete on RCS implementation.

But I'm not holding my breath for that. I'd assume we're currently on a path towards a duopoly, where Google provides the service for everyone on Android, and Apple provides the service for everyone on iPhones. Not clear what happens with "landline"/VOIP providers not locked to mobile devices, though, especially the commercial systems for corporate/enterprise users.

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[-] NobodyElse@sh.itjust.works 11 points 7 months ago

So is this going to be standard RCS, which has no encryption and the telcos need to support, or the Googlified version that does E2E encryption but requires storing keys on Google’s servers?

RCS has interoperability issues itself and Google hasn’t been making the situation better.

[-] ryper@lemmy.ca 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Apple is apparently working on getting encryption added to the standard

In a background briefing with reporters, Apple spokespeople touted the company's recent announcement that it will support the RCS messaging standard for iMessage sometime during 2024. In order to attend Apple's briefing and view a background document, we had to agree to paraphrase the company's remarks instead of quoting them directly.

Apple clarified that it is not implementing RCS as it exists today because it doesn't believe the standard offers enough privacy and security. Apple said it is working with a standards body—this is likely a reference to the GSMA—to ensure that the version of RCS it eventually implements will support encryption and strong privacy and security.

Apple said that once it adopts RCS, iPhone and non-iPhone users will be able to exchange messages with higher-resolution photos and videos, and will experience improved group texting. Apple said it hasn't brought its own message app to non-Apple devices because the user experience wouldn't meet the company's standards and that it cannot ensure that a third-party device's encryption and authentication are secure enough.

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[-] LodeMike@lemmy.today 11 points 7 months ago

RCS is a minor improvement, but it's still shit. Matrix needs to be the standard.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 18 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

They're not really equivalent.

RCS replaces SMS, and thus for users will effectively function like a peer to peer message delivery system based on phone numbers.

Matrix is an account-based client-server system with federation capabilities, meaning it has more in common with email.

The benefit of SMS/RCS is that the ability to use them simply comes with your phone number/SIM.

While account-based chat system like Matrix have obvious benefits provided by the fact that they work through an account on a server, an open standard like SMS used to be, but with modern capabilities, is needed.

iMessage, being a closed-off obfuscated mess sitting between those two approaches, needs to go.

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[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago

True and Matrix is very versatile if you look at what Beeper achieved. Yet it has been around a long time and has never gone big time. The thing though with replacing text SMS, is it has to also comply with what the mobile phone companies use at that level, and I don't Matrix has ever pitched that to them? This is not about the high level messaging we do at app level.

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[-] csm10495@sh.itjust.works 10 points 7 months ago

But will they fix my Pixel 8 just missing and failing to send RCS messages?

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[-] RedWeasel@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

"Fall of 20xx" is when Apple usually releases new versions of iOS, so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that iOS18 will be the release.

[-] recapitated@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

Love the bottom line in the posting title. Thank you.

[-] tgxn@lemmy.tgxn.net 8 points 7 months ago

Lmao finally the shit phones are improving, few years late to the party as usual 😂 We all use apps to chat now!

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago

The thing also is we can't replace text SMS unless that mode can be phased out, so it needs everyone to adopt whatever the next step is.

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[-] lepinkainen@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

ITT: Americans talking about bubble colours and the rest of the world going "just use Telegram, Signal or Whatsapp like the rest of us"?

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 7 points 7 months ago

Not as simple as that as many did ditch WahtsApp for Meta's documented privacy violations, and their ongoing T&C which passes the WhatsApp metadata upstream to Meta and others. A lot of people also only use one messenger, and right now nothing connects them together yet. So I have masses of family and friends that only use WhatsApp, and I now only have SMS contact with them. About 8% to 10% do have multiple messengers so I see some on Signal and Telegram.

The last thing the world needs, is for WhatsApp to become the default dominant standard. That is a company that can be least trusted out of everyone worldwide, based on their history. With the app installed, the metadata includes constant location, usage, contacts, messages to who, etc.

[-] DoingFedTime@scribe.disroot.org 3 points 7 months ago

A better surveillance tool for Google and Apple, no thanks. Signal for the win!

[-] danie10@lemmy.ml 16 points 7 months ago

Remember, RCS is replacing text SMS and Text SMS has not only absolutely zero encryption of any sort, it also has copies retained by every mobile service provider in terms of their license T&C's. You need to see RCS as an upgrade of text SMS, and not really a replacement for WhatsApp (yet).

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[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

RCS will be E2EE when the encryption standard rolls out. And this is going to replace vanilla SMS, which is insecure AF. So, IMHO, I don’t see how this hurts.

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this post was submitted on 30 Mar 2024
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