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submitted 9 months ago by breakfastmtn@lemmy.ca to c/world@lemmy.world

Ms. Soussana, 40, is the first Israeli to speak publicly about being sexually assaulted during captivity after the Hamas-led raid on southern Israel. In her interviews with The Times, conducted mostly in English, she provided extensive details of sexual and other violence she suffered during a 55-day ordeal.

Ms. Soussana’s personal account of her experience in captivity is consistent with what she told two doctors and a social worker less than 24 hours after she was freed on Nov. 30. Their reports about her account state the nature of the sexual act; The Times agreed not to disclose the specifics.

. . .

For months, Hamas and its supporters have denied that its members sexually abused people in captivity or during the Oct. 7 terrorist attack. This month, a United Nations report said that there was “clear and convincing information” that some hostages had suffered sexual violence and there were “reasonable grounds” to believe sexual violence occurred during the raid, while acknowledging the “challenges and limitations” of examining the issue.

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[-] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 85 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Well. This is pretty significant. I would say it's rather damning evidence that considerably raises the bar to doubt these claims.

There's a lot I could say here. Hamas is a bunch reprehensible fucks. It's disappointing that we needed concrete evidence because of how untrustworthy the IDF is. But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no "good guy" or "right side" among the war combatants. It's awful people fighting awful people. Hamas and the IDF both deserve nothing but contempt and scorn, and both should be dismantled for their crimes against humanity.

I've tried to be very precise with my wording because none of what I just said applies to the Palestinian nor Israeli people. The civilians and innocent people are caught between two legions of hell and are the ones paying the price. The kidnapped and tortured Israelis, the Palestinian people -- both of them are suffering at the hands of both Hamas and the Israeli government.

Neither of them care about the civilians. They use them as lambs for sacrifice and control the flow of information to manufacture hate and support for the war. It's become readily apparent that the IDF and Hamas just want to keep fighting, and they're manipulating the civilians to support them. If both peoples were getting the true, unfiltered information -- sights of dying Palestinian children, demolished buildings, accounts of Israeli hostages -- I think they'd be appalled at what "their side" is doing.

I really hope the majority would be appalled, because there can't be any peace until they recognize their shared suffering and humanity. And to be clear, the majority of suffering is clearly inflicted on the Palestinians.

Edit: I'm not angry at the downvotes but damn am I disappointed. You'd think "fuck the people genociding others and fuck the people taking hostages" would be an uncontroversial position, but here we are.

[-] fastandcurious@lemmy.world 26 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Reason this is controversial is because hamas is literally the same thing as IDF, bibi funded it and that much genocide also radicalized a shit ton of people, hamas is an asset of Israel, they shouldn’t be equated to palestine in anyway

This exact story will now be used to justify all the war crimes Israel has been doing, when hamas does something, Israel should be the one held accountable, not Palestine, there are no ‘two sides’, its only one side continuously killing the innocent

[-] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

No disagreement here really. This doesn't justify Israel's war crimes at all. Whether Hamas is effectively the same as the IDF or not, they're a bunch of radicalized shitheads who do not in any way represent the Palestinians. They're closer to ruling dictators than they are champions of the people.

[-] fastandcurious@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

You are right, but when you make the both sides bad argument, the pro genocide have an excuse ‘Oh hamas bad as well’ but the thing is the very reason hamas exists is because of Israel, and then according to me alteast Israel should be held equally accountable

[-] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

Something I've recently realized is that I can and should do more to call out the genocide proponents. I generally don't engage with them because there's no intelligent discussion to be had there, and there's a lot more interesting and nuanced things to talk about with people who agree this is a genocide that needs to stop.

But, that does give the illusion that the genocide proponents aren't being challenged, and that instead of harshly criticizing Israel I'm just saying "both sides bad". That's something I'm going to try and improve on, because I need to make it crystal clear that Hamas' actions are not even remotely an excuse for the IDF to be genocidal.

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[-] nammi@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Well the problem is one is the occupier and the one is the occupied. And people talk as if Hamas is the Palestinians problem and that it all started October 7th.

Treat people and respect them as humans, don’t put them in open-air prisons, and divide people into an apartheid system, then maybe you won’t have any terrorist attacks and/or rapes.

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[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

But I think the most salient and important point here is that there is no “good guy” or “right side” among the war combatants. It’s awful people fighting awful people.

Edit: Turns out I forgot to actually write the comment so here goes:

Hamas aren't good people, but the idea they're even comparable to the IDF is just wrong. Hamas at least has a cause they're fighting for, and have a real, valid reason for taking hostages (namely that without hostages post-war Gaza is fucked) (not saying they're allowed to abuse them that's just fucked up). And have the basic decency not to shoot children.

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[-] nac82@lemm.ee 60 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Now, write an individual article for each child starved to death or bombed by Israel. I can't muster the energy to care about a single rape in the middle of a genocide.

We have rape kits in Texas that have gone untested for over a decade. If rape was important to the people enacting justice, we have a long list to get through before we can start worrying about rapes in warzones.

But justice isn't the intent behind articles like this. They want to justify the genocide with individual crimes.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 43 points 9 months ago

That's bullshit. There are many news articles literally every single day about the civilians killed in Gaza. Meanwhile, on Lemmy, you have people still denying that Hamas sexually tortured women captured on October 7. Sorry it doesn't fit your narrative.

In my opinion, there is a huge difference between civilian collateral damage during a military operation and the use of rape as a weapon of war. We xan argue about how much force Israel is using and whether X amount of collateral damage is acceptable. But gratuitously raping people has no legitimate purpose, military or otherwise. It serves to sow terror and incite retaliation, which is why Hamas did it.

[-] nac82@lemm.ee 30 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

civilian collateral damage

Nazis can fuck off.

This is exactly what I'm calling out, using individual crimes to justify genocide.

You won't even accurately address the crimes because they are so heinous.

We are talking about genocide. Starving children is in no way a military operation so you can suck that lie back up your ass.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 8 points 9 months ago

Cutting off aid to Gaza in order to starve out the militants hiding in the civilian population is at least a plausible justification. Again, we can debate whether Israel has taken it too far, but using siege tactics doesn't make someone a Nazi. Nice try.

But what is your justification for raping people?

[-] mute@sh.itjust.works 20 points 9 months ago

By your twisted and fucked up logic, raping people is a justifiable military operation: you rape enough people some of them ought to be military personnel and it causes irreparable harm that may dissuade them to continue fighting.

Rape, civilian casualties, killing children….all of them are unacceptable. Now fuck off you nazi piece of shit.

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[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 15 points 9 months ago

Uh... What Israel is doing is 100%, undebatable a war crime. As occupiers they have a responsibility under international law to provide food and other life necessities to the people of Gaza. That doesn't change with the addition of an insurgency.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

Whatever. The point of the article is that Hamas committed many acts of rape and torture on Oct 7. You guys don't like that narrative so you are trying to draw me off topic by focusing on Israel's crimes and making a false equivalence between overzealous military tactics and rape-happy terrorists. These are the kind of people that Hamas recruits. Think about it. Hamas is the enemy of civilization, not your friendly neighbourhood Starbucks revolutionary.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 8 points 9 months ago

The point of the article is that Hamas committed many acts of rape and torture on Oct 7. You guys don’t like that narrative so you are trying to draw me off topic by focusing on Israel’s crimes and making a false equivalence between overzealous military tactics and rape-happy terrorists.

I won't engage with you anymore, but at least Hamas has the basic decency to not shoot children. Israel sure as hell doesn't.

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[-] JackGreenEarth@lemm.ee 23 points 9 months ago

Neither rape nor civilian murder, or 'collateral damage' as you put it, is tolerable. But minimising the actual deaths and lifelong physical casualties, rather than just rape, of hundreds of people to just 'collateral damage' as though you would react in the exact same way if Hamas was bombing Israeli hospitals and schools, is [insert disparaging word here].

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

My point is that bombing a building that you believe contains soldiers sometimes also causes civilian deaths. We can debate whether sufficient care was taken, but the justification is that the army believes that enemy soldiers were present. Same with cutting off aid shipments. We can debate whether Israel has gone too far in restricting humanitarian aid, but the justification is that Israel doesn't want supplies diverted for use by Hamas. What exactly is the justification for raping people?

[-] nac82@lemm.ee 29 points 9 months ago

Starving children is not a military operation.

You're full of shit.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 12 points 9 months ago

Nope. As I said in my other comment, cutting off aid to Gaza in order to starve out the militants hiding in the civilian population is a military operation that is at least plausibly justifiable. And I acknowledge the argument that Israel has taken it too far.

But what is your justification for raping people? What sort of military operation is that, exactly?

[-] mute@sh.itjust.works 27 points 9 months ago

By your twisted and fucked up logic, raping people is a justifiable military operation: you rape enough people some of them ought to be military personnel and it causes irreparable harm that may dissuade them to continue fighting.

Rape, civilian casualties, killing children….all of them are unacceptable. Now fuck off you nazi piece of shit.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

You really went there? Ouch. Get help.

[-] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Man, ghouls will go to any extent to justify starving children and/or war crimes when the right people are doing it.

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[-] stonedemoman@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 9 months ago

Unintended casualties is an unavoidable side effect of urban combat. Use your brain.

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[-] anarchyrabbit@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago

I don't agree with this comment. Both of those acts are fucking awful. Anyone to be raped must be an awful experience and extremely traumatic. I understand that some who is raped are not dead, but still a vile act.

[-] nac82@lemm.ee 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

If you truly believed this, you would be offended by the political use of rape to justify the genocide of children.

You don't want to engage what my comment actually said, the fact that a single rape in the face of genocide does not an article make.

My comment was about the focus on this crime as an individual act justifying genocide and you want to refocus back to the singular act while not really addressing the editorializing of NYT.

You are playing the game the genocidal people want you to play instead of engaging this propoganda meaningfully.

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[-] lettruthout@lemmy.world 33 points 9 months ago

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but this whole conflict wouldn't be happening if some crazy religious people hadn't stolen lots of land in the first place, and then persecuted the remaining inhabitants.

[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 24 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The “crazy religious people” and “who the land belongs to” switches around a lot depending on what year you pick as a baseline - you’re gonna have to be more specific.

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[-] stonedemoman@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 9 months ago

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land wasn't stolen and the persecution was perpetuated mutually.

[-] moe93@lemmy.ml 11 points 9 months ago

Believe whatever you want in the privacy of your own mind, but the land *was stolen. Lay off Fox and Friends for a bit.

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[-] FreudianCafe@lemmy.ml 21 points 9 months ago

NYT is such an serious outlet. They NEVER lied about things. They never lied about Gaddafi, Hussein, Assad, Putin, WMDs, war on terror, war on drugs, China, Venezuela, Nicarágua, México, Jamaica, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, Julian Assange, Snowden. Never!

[-] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 14 points 9 months ago

So much for "believe victims".

[-] nac82@lemm.ee 11 points 9 months ago

We also don't call Nazis victims when they face retaliation for their crimes against humanity either.

[-] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 14 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

We also generally don't condone retaliation against civilians for the actions of the government. We didn't punish all Germans for what the Nazis did. Let's not punish civilians for what Israel's doing.

Otherwise? You're closer to those Nazis than not.

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[-] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 15 points 9 months ago

"And now you can't call us out for totally fucking up with that other article."

[-] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 11 points 9 months ago

While an unfortunate and harrowing ordeal she suffered, her experience highlights a sort of proof that systemic and mass sexual assault is not a weaponized tool of Hamas: reinforcing the grim reality that warfare and the mechanisms that perpetuate it create this kind of collateral destruction. Rules are defined by their exceptions, after all.

[-] eran_morad@lemmy.world 10 points 9 months ago

Fuck outta here wit this shit.

[-] speaker_hat@lemmy.one 11 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

When Hamas can't harm the IDF, they harm the innocent, of both Palestinians and Israelis.

This is not a call only of Israeli women, but a call of every women to be possibly be near these savage people.

[-] Hedlosa 8 points 9 months ago

Just joined Lemmy, holy shit this instance is full of nazis and genocide apologists what the fuck, tell me how many women do you think the IDF have raped over the last 75 years? Hell even just since oct 7?

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this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2024
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