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What's the best reason to vote for Trump?
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2024
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His promise to end the war in Ukraine, thus saving hundreds of thousands of lives.
Seems like a good reason to me :)
You claim that the Ukrainian government are Nazis 🤡
Opinion disregarded.
Ah yes. With their Jewish leader whose relatives died in the Holocaust....
They definitely drank the Russian vodka...
So, what exactly are you trying to say?
I thought the narrative 'if you are a Jew you can't be a nazi' stopped after the events in Gaza, where people (left leaning people I think) accuse Netanyahu of being new Hitler and Israel of genocide or something like that, or do we still use it?
What I'm trying to say, and I could say in a half dozen ways, is there is no evidence Ukraine is nazi state, but yes valid point: Bibi is a piece of shit, but I also don't think he's antisemitic as Russia claims Zelenskyy is.
There is, in fact, much more evidence that Russia is.
Please see my other comment in this thread, it would be easier to discuss under one comment than to split it in multiple :)
Well, I guess one can find a reason to accuse almost anyone of almost anything, so let's compare the evidence against current ukr government and current rus government (but again let's do that in that other thread please, I already gave examples of nazism from current government there).
I'm not really sure what thread you're talking about, but I'm content with where I am here :)
There are documentaries showing a rise of right-wing neo-nazi groups in Russia as early as 2000s. Aleksandr Dugin is a self-described neo-nazi and essentially Putin's right-hand Rasputin. The entire culture of Russia has become heavily anti-immigrant. Wagner itself had nazi origins.. Putin is committing now just an attempted genocide in Ukraine but also one in Russia as he purges ethnic minorities to the front-lines while he keeps those middle-class in St. Petersburg and Moscow largely sheltered from the war. Forgetting the fact that Russia now has one of the worst ratings for Corruption and Journalistic Transparency in the world, matching the likes of the Taliban in Afghanistan — LOL.
Oh and of course Putin took a page out of Hitler's book when he invaded Poland under the false pretenses of protecting Ethnic German and invaded a sovereign neighboring nation. Nothing tops the wrongful, aggressive invasion of a neighboring state as they try to annex territory and commit documented war crime after documented war crime.
Yeah yeah, I know people talk of Azov, but that's <1% of UAF. It would be no different if the shit-stains under The Base, Oathkeepers, 1%ers, Proud Boys, Boogaloo boys all joined banners alongside the rest of the country to fight against a foreign invader, such as Russia.
If you're a Russian or Russian sympathizer, understand the majority of the world both population and economics-wise is not on your side. You're relegating yourself to being global pariah akin to North Korea. A laughing stock.
Ok, sure :)
I never heard of this guy, so thanks for the info. He doesn't seem to be anyone really important though, I quickly read some info about him and he just seems to be an "influencer" to me if I may use this word, not sure why you consider him Putin's right hand..
Are you saying that being anti-immigrant is somehow equal to being a nazi? I haven't yet heard such a take.
Anyway, I found this article from UN (which was published just 3 years ago, I don't think it can be considered outdated already?) which says Russia is actually in top 5 countries by the amount of immigrants.
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2021/01/1394392
Yeqh, this one I can believe.
Well, if you can call this a genocide, then I can definitely call the kidnappings of people from the streets and forcefully sending them to die to frontlines by Zelensky's regime a genocide. And a Ukrainian right now is more likely to die from that, than from some shelling or otherwise becoming a civil casualty.
I'm not sure which exactly index you are talking about (I'm not denying it though, this seems quite plausible to me), but I'm sure that if this index is in any way reliable, Ukraine would be somewhere quite close, there is just as much corruption and almost just as little journalistic freedom.
Well yeah his remark about Poland in that interview was indeed stupid.
Do you think Ukrainian side does not commit "war crimes"? Civilians in Belgorod (and other Russian neighbouring cities) are regularly dying from Ukrainian attacks.
Yeah this is one of my arguments :)
Glad we can at least agree that those guys are nazis. What do you think about Zelensky (head of state!) making and publishing photos with their commander? Does it look like endorsment of nazism from the highest level of government?
Second question, what do you think about Stepan Bandera?
I am Ukrainian actually. I do not sympathize with Russia, I think everybody is equally bad (except for those who at least try to finish the war, which right now is Trump and Orban).
Read further then. Familiarize yourself with the Foundations of Geopolitics, the very geopolitical playbook Putin is carrying out as we speak.
Immigration occurring != Russians liking immigration. It's a convenient scapegoat for the right-wing extremists in the nation no differently than here in the United States.
https://jamestown.org/program/anti-immigrant-sentiments-in-russia-lurk-behind-deep-social-issues/
Of course if you're in a state of war, things change. Even the US clamped down on the press during WWII. The stats for Russia however were pre-war, however. Yes, Ukraine is low on the list, but above Russia.
Does that make Ukraine Nazis? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Zelenskyy himself as a Jew and whose ancestors died in the Holocaust is, himself, an anti-Semite or Nazi-sympathizer? Does that justify Putin's aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation just like Hitler did with Poland? Any reasonable person would say of course not.
Yeah, I think they probably have. I also think the Allies of WWII committed war crimes, too, but it doesn't change that their side was the more righteous cause. I also think, since you cited the UN, that all evidence points to Russia committing the vast majority of war crimes.. Naturally, proportionality matters. Let's keep in mind that those Citizens of Belgorad or Ukraine's Crimea would not be hit if Russia decided to end its imperial efforts. So naturally, any death in this war is a direct result of Russia beginning said war.
I already explained this which went ignored: Ever hear the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
I call bullshit :) — I'd love proof of your Ukrainian nationality; I otherwise do not believe it. Boy, are you in the deep, deep minority if you are. Orban and Trump can definitely settle this war tomorrow — by giving Putin what he wants and expecting Ukraine to capitulate lol.
Well, obviously I can't read it in a reasonable amount of time to continue this discussion, so maybe instead you would be so kind to tell me what exactly from that book makes you say that?
So, you must like immigration in order to not be nazi? This seems like an even weirder take for me, really... I think it is mostly western countries that are actively supporting immigration, it doesn't really happen on a similar scale in the rest of the world.. Middle east, most of Asia (Japan, South Korea, etc.), are they all nazis by that logic?...
So as I said, nearby.
Your previous paragraph is talking about corruption and journalist freedom, I've never said that this is what makes Ukrainian government Nazis....
Well, posting photos with Azov brigade's commander (that even you agreed are nazi), seems to be a good indicator of being a nazi-supporter, wouldn't you say?
What about him supporting Stepan Bandera (you still didn't say what you think about that great guy btw), another nazi?
But where did I say that??
It was not even me who brought nazism into this discussion, some guy read my other comments and tried to somehow invalidate my opinion using the fact that I say that Ukrainian government is nazi (btw it's a fallacy and doesn't work like that), I've never said that it justified anything, I'm just arguing that nazism in Ukrainian government is very real and widespread. Please don't put words in my mouth :)
Well, we will know how much war crimes were commited by each side after the war, now it's just propaganda from both sides.
Anyway, saying that Ukraine is more righteous to commit war crimes is not cool and dehumanizing.
Why stop at that, we might go even further back and say that there would be no war at all if there were no nazism in Ukraine..
Anyway, going back into history and pointing fingers can be done indefinitely, so this is not very productive IMHO. I prefer to discuss what is happening right now.
And anyway, I did not say that Russia is not to blame for the war. It doesn't make it the only one who is responsible for what is happening right now. It is not Putin thanks to whom people are afraid to leave their homes because they might get forcefully sent to the army, it's Zelensky.
So, would I be correct to rephrase this as "it's okay to be nazi (well, I'd argue that being friend with nazi and promoting them makes you nazi as well) as long as it helps you against your enemy"?
Because if so - we don't actually need to continue arguing, you seem to not deny Ukrainian government being nazis but instead trying to justify it.. I'm only trying to say they are nazis, I'm not trying to say whether it is justified or not :)
Well, I'm not going to give you a scan of my passport, sorry :)
But what exactly makes you feel so? Is admitting your own government is nazi what makes it so unbelivable? I'm sure Americans will be saying the same if Trump gets elected...
As for saying that I'm in a deep minority, again what makes you think so? Do you really think all the people that are being kidnapped on the streets and get sent to die have any sympathy for Zelensky??
You may not believe me, but every single Ukrainian friend I have hates Zelensky, because thanks to him, either they or their father/husband/brother/etc. might be caught on a street and sent to die at any time.
The absolute majority of people who support him are those who will not be the ones dying in the war, or at least those who believe that they won't. Which btw includes you and any other foreigner who supports him. It's cool and easy to support a war, when you are not forced to die in it.
I didn't bring it into the discussion, but sure, let's talk about it :)
What is your opinion on Azov brigade? Are those guys cool and not nazis? What about Ukrainian government (and Zelensky in particular) endorsing them (by publicly posting photos with them for example, etc.)?
What is your opinion on Stepan Bandera, that cool guy and totally not nazi who fought for Ukrainian independence, and who is being glorified in Ukraine and after whom streets are renamed?
Those two are just the most famous examples :)
I've not been following the Ukrainian war recently, but wouldn't the US surrendering Ukraine result in the erasure and eradication of Ukrainian culture. Which would likely result in more deaths than the war itself?
But we won't have to hear about the war any more, and that's all they really care about.
I care about people (including my friends and family) not dying.
As a conservative, the only people you care about not dying are your friends and family. Conservatives are not able to experience empathy for people outside of their in-group.
Well, this is false :)
I do experience empathy towards all Ukrainians dying in this war, not just my friends and family (although obviously I care more about them, that's how life works).
You are lying. It really is that simple.
Well go on, prove it, expose my lies to every one :)
The consistent behavior of conservatives world-wide is evidence that conservatives are incapable of experiencing empathy for those outside of their in-group.
Your suggestion that your capacity for empathy is somehow different than all other conservatives is bizarre and itself requires evidence to be taken at face value.
You didn't provide any proof for that :)
And actually, why do you even consider me a conservative? Is it only conservatives who have a compassion for human life? :/
You are the one suggesting that somehow I lack empathy, so burden of proof is on you ;)
The statement immediately above was evidence. In classic conservative fashion, you now demand evidence of that evidence. This goal-post movement will continue ad nauseum, illustrating the futility of debating conservatives.
No. The opposite is true, obviously.
You are requesting evidence of a negative, knowing full-well that it is not possible to prove a lack of existence of evidence. You have now provided yet another example of a conservative engaging in debate in bad faith.
You're confusing your opinion with evidence. Sorry to tell you, but it doesn't work that way.
Oh really? So you have empathy towards hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that died in the war, and also wish for war to end as soon as possible, and therefore support Trump who is the only politician who promised to end the war? Well, in that case what are we even arguing about :)
I am requesting evidence of your arguments. If you argue something that you can't prove, then your argument is by definition invalid.
This statement is deception. I used your words as evidence. Your words are clearly not my opinion.
This statement is manipulation based on deception. You asked me to prove that you do not have empathy for those not in your in-group. It is foundational to the basic human understanding of reality to know that it is impossible to provide evidence of the absence of something beyond the absence of the evidence of its existence. This is an informal logical fallacy called "Argument from Ignorance". I provided a statement based on the Absence of Evidence and you replied by demanding the Evidence of Absence. This is a bad faith argument on your part.
Omg, it's really impossible to argue with you :/
In a dozen messages we've exchanged, you provided exactly 0 evidence of what you're trying to prove, exactly 0 quotes of me that prove any of your points and exactly 0 valid arguments.
It's impossible to continue this discussion :(
Your dissenting opinion does not disprove my evidence.
This is manipulation based on deception. I used multiple quotes of your comments as evidence against you. You have just decided that they do not "prove any of (my) points". Your opinion is irrelevant.
Another manipulation based on your personal opinion that the evidencr I provided was not sufficient to change your mind. My goal, however, has never been to change your mind. My goal has been to allow you to illustrate the deception, manipulation and bad faith discussion one should always expect from a conservative.
It is not possible for a conservative to enter a debate in good faith, as every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation.
If Trump actually COULD end that war, you can enjoy living in Newkraine, the redeveloped luxury resort of the Sovi- I mean, Russian Union.
Here we go again, I always hear the same arguments and they don't make sense..
Nobody talks about Ukraine being turned into Russia. After peace talks start, new borders will be drawn (give or take) at the current frontlines (which could be way closer to Russia if peace talks started sooner btw).
And btw, even apart from that - do you know how to identify someone who never visited Ukraine and Russia? They are scaring you of living in Russia. Ukraine and Russia is the same shithole, give or take. Seriously, take whatever metric you want - HDI, GDP, corruption index, journalist freedom index, amount of wooden toilets on the outside, what-fucking-ever, what you will see? Both countries being close together, sometimes Ukraine is a bigger shithole, sometimes Russia is.
I'm sure that's all true, but you're not looking at it like Trump.
Your mistake is thinking like someone who gives a shit about ANYTHING that happens outside of the US. Trump is not one of those people.
Trump has a tiny boner for the power Putin has, and many people are convinced Putin has dirt on Trump. He would send US planes to drop bombs on Ukraine if his buddy Putin asked him to.
Well, maybe you're right, I don't know.
Like sure, maybe all that you've said is true!
But Dems will 100% continue the war just like Biden was doing this whole time. Trump at least says that he will end it.
So as I see: chance of peace with a Dem is 0%, chance of peace with Trump is >0%.
Do you think I am wrong here ^ ?
And if no, then how am I supposed to support anyone but Trump?
I think it's strange that you say you live there, but don't seem to have a preference on HOW the war ends. There's a big difference between a Ukraine victory, a Russian victory, and anywhere in the middle.
I'm not going to tell you how it is, if you're there, you know better than I, but I do know that Trump is not someone you want to put your trust in.
He's essentially Putin in training, and if you're still ok with that, you can fuck right off, because fascism isn't good for anybody.
What difference is there for an average Joe?
But I did not say anywhere that I trust Trump, in fact I said otherwise that I fully agree with you that politicians (including Trump) cannot be trusted!..
As I said - he at least says that he will end the war, and the Dems say they will continue it.
And again - if there would be other (viable) candidates, sure I'd support them. Is there any other candidate who promises that Ukrainians will stop dying?
Yeah. I've had my fill of sea lion today. Bye
Cya
Why would it? Trump did not promise to "surrender Ukraine", he promised to force both sides to negotiate and end the war. I don't think those negotiations would include whole Ukraine becoming Russia, do you think so? Most likely scenario is that the current front lines become the new borders, and most of the lost territories (Lugansk, Doneck, Crimea) don't really have " Ukrainian culture" they are mostly Russian speaking. It's a little bit different with Kherson and Zaporizhzhya but they still don't have nearly as much "Ukrainian culture" as western Ukraine.
The US doesn't have the ability and/or willingness to force Russia to comply with any of their demands. Therefore any deal has to be in agreement with the Russian state, which means their war demands. That means either the US pulls military support and Ukraine are unable to fight back, or the talks go nowhere and nothing really changes. There is no motivation for Russia to accept the current front lines.
... Although, like I said, my knowledge of this conflict is a little spotty - someone in the audience let me know if my read of the situation is correct.
I don't think this is correct..
We now know the details of the peace talks (from Ukrainian sources!) that started right at the beginning of the war, where Russia was ready to retreat to pre-war (so 2022) borders.
So I'm actually reasonably sure that Russia would absolutely accept the current front-lines.
The only reason there is no peace talks happening, is because Zelensky's demands are absolutely clownish (seriously, I don't know a better word here) - "give us back all the territories you captured, including Crimea, and then we will be ready to talk".
And you believed him? Why would you ever believe a word out of that guy's mouth?
Well, you are right, there is no reason to believe him or any other politician.
But dems openly say that they will continue the war, and Trump at least promises to end it. So you know, with Trump there is at least a chance for peace, while with whatever Dem candidate there will be - the chance is zero.
It is not possible for a conservative to enter a discussion in good faith. Every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation. Every word.
It is not possible for a liberal to enter a discussion in good faith. Every word uttered by a liberal is deception or manipulation. Every word.
See? I can do it as well :)
Now, do you have an actual point/argument that makes sense?
Your post history is consistent evidence of my claim. Every comment you've made on Lemmy has been deceptive and manipulative on its face or in its substance.
The time for negotiating with conservatives ended over a decade ago. The time for curing the social cancer of conservatism is at hand. There is no such thing as a "good conservative" alive today.
Here we go again...
Every time somebody says this, I ask for just one example. And never receive it (because I neither manipulate nor deceive anyone :).
So, any examples? :)
Well yeah, you definitely seem like a good guy
What part of "every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation" are you having difficulty deciphering? Every comment you've made here is an example.
Let's use your above comment as an example.
This is not a true statement on its face.
Most replies to your "innocent inquiries" provide evidence of your deception as you reply with moved goal-posts.
This claim is an absurd falsehood that is evident to every rational human who reads your comment history.
As you can see, "debating" with a conservative is a waste of time as the conservative is not able to enter any discussion with honesty or in good faith.
Holy shit, you wrote such long comment, and it still doesn't prove a single manipulation/deceptio n/lie from me XD
Let me give you a tip, since you seem to struggle argumenting: if you want to prove it - the easiest way is to provide a counter-example ;)
Well, again - provide a single example of that :)
And again, a fallacy without an actual argument.
It is a common conservative tactic of deception to claim evidence is not evidence. This has been a standard go-to tactic for conservatives throughout history.
That approach does not work on Lemmy the way it works on other platforms you may be more familiar with (e.g. Truth Social, Stormfront, Rumble). Not acknowledging evidence as its presented to you is not going to result in a normal person being fooled here. Using a condescending tone is also not going to work.
The more you writhe, slither and whine, the more I enjoy playing with my food. Ok, your turn.
Well, considering you cannot provide any evidence/proofs to anything you're saying, I guess there is nothing more to talk with you about :(
That's a shame
Disregarding examples is not an effective way to counter them.
There never was. Every word you've uttered has been deception or manipulation, making our exchange an illustration of the very point you originally tried to debate against.
Another untrue statement.