57
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
57 points (100.0% liked)
transgender
1943 readers
1 users here now
Welcome to lemmy.ml/c/transgender! This is a community for sharing transgender or gender diverse related news articles, posts, and support for the community.
Rules:
-
Bigotry, transphobia, racism, nationalism, and chauvinism are not allowed.
-
Selfies are not permitted for the safety of users.
-
No surveys or studies.
-
Debating transgender rights is not allowed. Transgender rights are human rights. Debating transgender healthcare is not allowed. Transgender healthcare is a necessity.
-
No civility policing transgender people. Transgender people have a right to be angry about transphobia and be rude to transphobes.
-
If you are cis, do not downvote posts. We don't like you manipulating our community.
-
Posts about dysphoria/trauma/transphobia should be NSFW tagged for community health purposes.
-
For both cis and trans people: Please alter your username (if possible) to include pronouns (or lack thereof, or questioning) so no one misgenders anyone. details. This rule is important for maintaining a safe place. If you can't change your ID, please let a mod know and include it in your bio.
-
Leftist infighting is not allowed.
Please remember to report posts that break any of these rules, it makes our job easier!
If you are looking for a more secure and safe trans space, we suggest you visit https://hexbear.net/c/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns. While we will try our best, lemmy.ml/c/transgender is far more open to the fediverse, and also to trolls. One of the site admins of lemmy.ml, nutomic, is also a transphobe, while hexbear is ran mostly by trans people and has a very active trans community.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
"At birth" isn't an ideal - it's a fact. FFS - it's in the actual name of the certificate.
The exact and only point of a birth certificate is to record that on such-and-such date at such-and-such time, a baby was born to [this] person, and it possessed [these] distinguishing characteristics. That's it. Who or what that baby became later in life isn't relevant. At all.
Which is in fact exactly why I said that "that’s an argument against using, or requiring, a birth certificate as ID" - because a birth certificate, of necessity, is a record of information that's significantly out-of-date.
The ideal in question isn't "at birth", it's whatever it is that drives folk to think "at birth" somehow matters more than "now"
There is no such necessity. I live in Australia. Here, trans folk can get their birth certificate amended to reflect their correct gender.
If it was a "necessity" that it not be changed, that wouldn't be possible.
Your insistence that it can't be changed "for reasons" isn't a necessity, it's an ideal (and a harmful one at that).
If that's the point you want to argue, you'll have to go find somebody who holds that ideal, which means someone other than me.
My point is and always has been very simple - a birth certificate is a just that - a record that on some specific date at some specific time, a baby was born to some specific person. That's it. That's all it is.
That doesn't mean or even imply that "'at birth' matters more than 'now'." It means that a birth certificate has one and only one job - to record a birth - and anything and everything after that is some other document's job.
And in fact, I would say it's undeniable that "now" is more important than "at birth," which, again, is exactly why the very first thing I said was that, to me, the whole issue is an argument against using, or requiring, a birth certificate for ID.
To me, it's as if you're arguing that a doorbell should also be a microwave oven, and when I point out that a doorbell's job is to be a doorbell, you accuse me of holding the "ideal" that doorbells are more important than microwave ovens.
As I said, Australian birth certificates don't work the way you describe. They aren't static and locked in to "at birth" as they're able to be updated.
The fact that many birth certificates work this way means that treating "at birth" as sacrosanct isn't a requirement. It's a preference. And in this case, a preference that actively hurts people, whilst helping no one. You value a false notion of data purity over the lived reality of the people whose lives are damaged by not being able to update their birth certificates.
Even your fix works around the idea that data can't be changed or updated, when the simplest solution, in place already in many countries, is to let go of the idea that old data is somehow more important than the people that data is from
And that's it. No matter how many times and in how many different ways I explain my point, you insist on dishonestly assigning sinister motives to me, and there's absolutely no reason I need to take that sort of abuse from anyone.
Blocked.
"I'm not an idealisist! I'm just so upset by your insistence that data purity doesn't trump the needs of living people, that I'm going to block you!"
And to clarify, I never suggested that you were a bigot or had sinister motives. I suggested that you perceive data purity as some sort of ideal that needs to be upheld at all costs. And because you prioritise data purity, all of your "solutions" sustain data purity, but do it in ways that just won't happen.
But in the mean time, in the world we are both living in right now, a change that doesn't uphold data purity as the primary goal, is achievable, and literally saves lives.
You aren't sinister. You just have your priorities in the wrong place, because to you, this is hypothetical and driven by an idealised perspective of what the world could be, rather than the reality of what it is right now, and the harm that is already happening because of it
Do they maintain a record of it's alterations though.
Ed: answer yes, so there is still record that it is not your birth gender it just isn't easily accessible unless the legal system gets involved.
Yep, which is fine. A record of all amendments to official documents is expected. That's not the issue though. The issue is the version of the document that people need to use in daily life. And that should be relevant and current.
We do not have that in the us as name and gender changes are generally civil suit that only maintain limited private record that is not indexable by relevant agencies.
It's why it's an issue to change them, they're going to imply credit or identity theft would be easier if alterations were allowed.