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Assuming we don't have free will, why do we have the illusion that we do? (slrpnk.net)

submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by frankPodmore@slrpnk.net to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

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Three possibilities come to mind:

Is there an evolutionary purpose?

Does it arise as a consequence of our mental activities, a sort of side effect of our thinking?

Is it given a priori (something we have to think in order to think at all)?

EDIT: Thanks for all the responses! Just one thing I saw come up a few times I'd like to address: a lot of people are asking 'Why assume this?' The answer is: it's purely rhetorical! That said, I'm happy with a well thought-out 'I dispute the premiss' answer.

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[-] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 19 points 4 months ago

Here's my take: the answer is emergent phenomena. We live in a very complex system and in complex systems there are interactions that can only be predicted using systems of equal or higher complexity. So even in case everything is predetermined, it would still be unpredictable and therefore your decisions are basically still up to you and the complex interactions in your brain.

[-] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 10 points 4 months ago

I think this is probably it. I think this argument is strongly related to the idea of consciousness as an emergent property of sensory experience. I find it simple to imagine the idea of a body with no will or no consciousness (i.e., a philosophical zombie). But I find it very difficult, almost impossible, in fact, to imagine a consciousness with no will, even if it's only the will to think a given thought.

[-] TechAnon@lemm.ee 6 points 4 months ago

Do we have free will to think a given thought? All of my thoughts just suddenly appear in my mind or are connected to previous thoughts that suddenly appeared in my mind.

[-] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 2 points 4 months ago

I mean, if I said to you, 'Calculate 13x16' (or some other sum you don't know off the top of your head) you could either do it or not do it. That would be a willed choice, whether or not you knew the answer.

[-] TechAnon@lemm.ee 4 points 4 months ago

My thoughts would be presented based the fact that you've asked me to calculate something. At that point, past experiences would guide my path forward. If I felt like doing math, I may do it, if I had poor childhood experiences in math class, I probably wouldn't. At the end of the day, it's all based on history or current questions/feelings. In every scenario my thoughts are presented to me. To prove it, ask yourself what your next thought will be. If you're honest with yourself, you'll see you can't answer that question and when you try and force a thought direction, that direction itself is based on your knowledge from the past and that thought was also presented to you.

It's wild because it absolutely feels like we have free will, but it sure doesn't look like it. 🤷‍♂️

[-] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

This is the problem of original intentionality. There are studies on it, for instance they found that with an mri they can detect when you have come to a decision before your conscious mind realizes you have. Some processes in our brain are outside of our control, because the brain is not just the neocortex but also includes tens of other structures that evolved separately with specific hard-coded purposes, but that doesn't mean they are not working as a team. I think in any case you are still reaponsible for the decisions you take.

[-] jimmy90@lemmy.world 5 points 4 months ago

exactly. that for me is in fact the definition of free will

[-] jimmy90@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

actually this is the definition that first came up on a search

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion"

so yeah we do have free will. the rest is philosophical masturbation

this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2024

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