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this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2024
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Wait until they find out how much it's going to cost them to repaint the jets that they vandalized.
Damn, guess it’s better to let the environment collapse and our species to go extinct because capitalism and money is more important.
I didn't say that I disagreed with their goals. I just understand that they did hundreds of thousands of pounds of damage to those jets that will make absolutely zero difference to their carbon footprint and will probably be held financially responsible. A big win for the activists for sure.
With an ASBO and jail time, without convincing anyone, and hardening public opinion against their cause. A big win for the extremists for sure.
How does this harden public opinion against their cause? This is the type of shit we want to see. There's a difference between this and inconveniencing those who are commuting to work.
How can you be sure they don’t convince anyone? I’m not sure, but I think you made that up - as it matches what you feel
Do you think it convinced the motorists who have beaten them and dragged them off the road by their hair? Or the people responsible for the preservation of Stone Henge? Or the wealthy people whose jets they painted? I can't prove a negative, of course, or religion would be gone but you may be right, they may have convinced someone.
At least they tried, instead of just discussing the form of protest on the internet. History will prove them right.
And I built a straw bale house 20 years ago that saves 75% on heating and cooling over my next door neighbours smaller house. I am making a real difference by making personal changes instead of trying to ram my moral superiority down other people's throats.
Fom the article:
Oxfam:
I think what you built is legitimately cool but your efforts are erased many times over by a single flight these people take. I think thats enough to suggest you shouldnt empathise with the rich being given an inconvenient message, not that it was meant to change their minds, its to raise awareness in us, the general populace.
Also, we need systemic change, not just individual effort. We will have energy needs irrespective of how efficient we make things, and political pressure is how we will force away from fossil fuels.
No doubt. My point was that I'm actually taking concrete action to dramatically reduce my own carbon footprint rather than pissing off a bunch of people whose support I really need for my cause by trying to ram my misguided sense of moral superiority down their throats.
Yes and this is an example of a justified campaign for some systemic change, something quite different from what you're doing. I'm sure you'll agree that once it is them causing a huge amount of damage, inconveniencing them is ok if it gets a message to them, and gets people talking about a non-proliferation treaty and the harms of private jets?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. But they won't be drawing up new laws. And we can't rely on their good will seeing all the cases of companies focusing on their bottom line while knowingly harming people and the environment.
I love the fact that you used the word justified here.
"Anything that I do to __________ is justified because I'm __________ superior."
That's self-absolution which is the hallmark of extremism.
A handfull of extremists gluing themselves to the road and throwing things at works of art aren't going to change the world. They're going to piss people off and get arrested and jailed and the world will move on. You need BILLIONS of people on board to get real change to happen and this is NOT the way to do it. Sure, it makes them feel good and they can sit around in a discussion circle and talk about how pissed off they made the people they were delaying but that's not going to make change happen.
But I never suggested anything so extreme, now did I? I argued that one harmless act they did was justified given the context of who they did it to, not that absolutely anything they do would be justified.
No one has ever claimed they and the stuff they've done is all it takes to solve these issues. They are a group that is part of a movement, and what they are doing is part of the work that is needed to bring about change.
You can't just look at the acts, you need to look at their effects. In a democracy, you need to raise awareness and pressure representatives to bring about change. Which is what they're doing by spray painting private jets and other vandalism they did.
I don't know why you think that. Do you think countries held referendums before deciding to shift to more renewables, pass green taxes, etc.? They haven't, and obviously they won't.
Vegan extremists targeted a restaurant called Antler in Toronto for months and months. They protested in front of the restaurant. They yelled at people about being murderers and rapists for eating meat. They made children cry because they were scared.
Antler is still there.
Inconveniencing people, endangering people, throwing paint at art and archeological heritage sites isn't going to change anything.
The problem is that most people have far bigger issues to deal with right now. The US is 8 months away from potentially slipping into a christofascist dictatorship. Lots of people can't feed their families. The wealthy and their puppets in government don't care in the slightest about what a few dozen people do to annoy the rest of us. No one cares (at least no one who makes any difference.) Is that a problem? Yes. Is throwing a bit of "paint" on a few jets going to change the world? No. Not at all. It will make zero difference.
There has been zero effect. None. It's pissed off a bunch of people. It's never going to chance the world. The wealthy have too tight a lock on power. Politicians literally don't care about what the people want. There's a great video on Youtube about corruption in the US where they talk about how if the government cared about what people wanted the line of how likely they were to do things would be almost the same as the line for how much people want them to do those things. In reality the line is almost flat but closely correlates with how much the wealthy want them to do things.
The graphs I'm talking about are around 5:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tu32CCA_Ig
It's interesting that you mentioned democracy and referenda. You need 170 or 180 million people on board to win an election in the US. You need 12 or 15 million in Canada. A few people gluing themselves to the road can't win an election and if you can't win an election you can't cauce change in our system.
Where do you live? In the US and Canada the balance of power between the far right and the right of center (in Canada) and the extreme right and the far right (in the US) is such that most of the policies are VERY pro-business. In Alberta in Canada like in many parts of the US the government is actively blocking or banning renewables. China and less developed countries see the value of having LOTS of renewables. Energy makes up the largest part of the cost of anything you buy so having cheap, clean energy makes your products cheaper. Nothing is ever going to change in the near-fascist democracies of the west until the oligarchs figure out how to get more wealth from making the change.
A few extremists gluing themselves to the road and throwing water paint at paintings is just going to annoy people who can't do anything about it.
Oh no!
Anyway...
Who cares about that, the rich can foot the bill.
They will and they won't care. It will do nothing to change anyone's mind but will harden public opinion against the extremists.
I don't think the general public cares about Taylor Swift needing to get her jet re-painted. Only Swifties will care.
No, but the public have shown that they are frustrated with the extremists and the courts have handed down multi-year sentences of incarceration in a growing number of cases. The public react with revulsion to extremists.
We should be extreme in our opposition to the climate disaster currently unfolding. The heat is extreme, the hurricanes extreme, the drought is extreme, the crop failures are extreme and the dead and dying ecosystems are extreme.
We the public have been politely asking for climate solutions for decades while the extremist oil and gas companies hid the extent of their knowledge from us and used lies to convince half the population nothing is wrong. Even now, the oil and gas lobby lie and plan for expansion into poorer countries where western regulations can't touch touch them. They'll burn every drop, take every dollar, and Fuck over everything in doing it.
So you know what? When I see these people throwing paint on things, gluing themselves down, and causing tension I say good, good for them, be extreme. These protestors have convinced me over the last couple of years with these acts and nothing they've done is anywhere near as extreme as climate change.
Climate change is killing people, right now, probably thousands every year, that's fucking extreme and its getting worse. These protestors threw paint on objects.
very well written
Maybe it will work. I guess we'll see if they can convince the people who control the governemnt, military, and police that a few people glued to the road should change their unchecked avarice.
Well it would help an awful lot for so called moderate allies to stop whinging over the methods and start focusing on the message. Everyone who pours into a comment section to opine over their "agreeing with the cause, but not the act of protest" is carrying water for the oil companies. It's these people who help establish and maintain the permission structure for the out of hand dismissal of climate protests.
We should be uncomfortable with protests, people should be made to feel discomfort, tension, and cognitive dissonance. These things work to end injustice better than all the polite ignorable protests that have ever happened.
Dude, calm down. I live in a straw bale house. I've been doing my part since before most of these people gluing themselves to roadways were born. I do something useful every election and vote for the parties that are for saving the environment.
This isn't "a few people glued to a road," this is a threat. "Fix society, or tensions will escalate."
The way you keep minimizing these efforts tell me you either don't really understand protests or are actively trying to make them seem trivial.
I saw you complaining earlier about them "shoving moral superiority down your throat," which is curious. It's like your biggest problem with them is just that you have to hear about it.
I'm sure your shed is nice. We need other people to build nice sheds.
I'm not minimizing their efforts. I'm pointing out that they are being annoying at best with no hope of affecting real change. It's protesturbation. Tantrumism. They're not terrorizing anyone with their stunts, they just being annoying.
I was protesting and active to save the St. Lawrence River when it was so polluted you couldn't eat the fish. We did outreach and educatiom without annoying and endangering people. That was almost 50 years ago. I was very active in the straw bale building community for years helping other people to build straw bale buildings of all types. I trained the building officials to inspect straw bale buildings and intervened in disputes between people wanting to build a straw bale building and building officials with a 100% success rate.
Don't lecture me about protest or change.
I’m getting more and more sure - you’re just making things up claiming to know what the “public” thinks. Did you call up 1800 British people to know this or are you just assuming everyone thinks like you do?
No, you're probably right. They might have convinced someone.
The public who would otherwise care so much about this nightmare that we keep barrelling towards... people who use that "frustration with extremists" are just justifying to themselves what they would have done anyway, which is nothing.
Why is it that you keep referring to them as extremists? You seem bad faith as fuck all over this post.
They believe that their actions are justified because they believe that they are morally superior. They are self-absolving. That is the hallmark of extremists of all types.
That's why.
Why do you think that about them? Is that based on anything that's actually in reality?
It is obvious that they feel justified in inconveniencing or endangering hundreds or thousands of people at a time by blocking roads and bridges, invading the stage at performances, etc. Any one of those people could be rushing home to meet their children, or to a hospital to see a dying parent, or facing the loss of their job if they're late. An inattentive HGV driver could plow into the back of stopped traffic and kill people. But, it's totally ok because their motives are pure. That's self-absolution. That is the hallmark of an extremist.
I think that's true for Stone Henge, the Mona Lisa, gluing themselves to roads, etc.
I think targeting high profile extremely wealthy people is different and will be much more effective. I guess time will tell.
Perhaps. With the near iron grip that the wealthy have on most governments I don't expect anything to change because a few people glued themselves to the road or threw a bit of paint on some rich assholes jets.
Actually about 0$ because they always use stuff thats removable with water. Otherwise they would be bankrupt.
Plus trespass at the airport plus cleaning and testing all of the external instrumentation plus...they can really stack it on.
It looks like turmeric
Can't squeeze blood from a stone. The cost to repaint those jets is going to be a lot more than they can ever recoup from the activists.
It's apparently water soluable so the paint should come off easily. The expensive part is going to be cleaning the engines and external instruments if they need to be cleaned and reccalibrated or recertified. The courts have been handing out serious sentences running into the multiple years so they may have that coming as well.
I'm not aware of any committed activist that was ever deterred by a prison sentence. But they are usually pretty poor so my original point stands.
Well at least they won't have to worry about feeding, clothing, and housing themselves for a while.
Lol yeah
Edit to add - I meant to add, and they'll find a whole bunch of disaffected people ripe for recruiting to a direct action cause. But my ADHD brain forgot. :(