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When I die, turn me into soup
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this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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You could reduce meat intake and buy higher quality meat whenever financially feasible. Then you help fight the problem but can still look down on vegans
This is solid advice, but... you know... don't look down on vegans maybe? They are trying to do the same thing (reduce animal suffering) but are able/willing to go above and beyond.
Or you could just not support abuse and murder. Also an option.
Small incremental changes are easier to make than big ones. It is also better to have many people reducing meat than just a few full vegans.
True, but my point still stands. Most people don't go vegan overnight.
In my experience they often do go vegan overnight though. The key tends to be actually connecting the food on your plate with where it came from and accepting that animals are capable of suffering. Once that connection is made, animal products simply aren't seen as food anymore and going vegan overnight is the only logical conclusion.
Some people may be further along the spectrum towards being vegan when this connection is actually made but regardless of if you are vegetarian, "only eat free range meat", or an unapologetic meat eater, once the connection is made they are vegan.
these people are by definiton not vegan. Trying to be more ethical by their choices, which is commendable - but not vegan.
Yes, that is my point. Whether someone is vegetarian, "trying to be more ethical" but still eating meat, or just a meat eater that has never even considered ethics, there is nothing that says you have to go through all of those steps to becoming vegan. In my experience, regardless of how far along you are in those "steps" once you make the connection between the food on your plate and the animals that it comes from and you realize that they are suffering for you, you go vegan. That could be meat eater to vegan, "ethical" meat eater to vegan, or vegetarian to vegan. My point is that in my experience that process does happen overnight.
Well it's not universal. For some it does, for some it doesn't.
I mean... reducing meat is how people would go vegan over longer period if time (as opposed to over night) though? Not sure where you were going with your original comment.
The word easier here is a choice. What is more comfortable is easier, but eating a plant based diet is very easy. It's cheaper and widely available in most countries. What you mean by easier really refers to more comfortable, not really to there being less physical obstacles
Depends on availability. Plenty of eateries don't have vegan options and this is especially true for locations accommodating larger groups. Furthermore, a lot of vegans need supplements (as I've been told), which is also subject to availability.
Lastly, it's easier to convince a thousand people to eat less meat – especially since they usually already have the ingredients required for vegetarian food at home – than to skip meat alltogether.
Two thousand meals a week that turned vegetarian is a lot more impact than 70 meals turned vegan.
It's not that a lot of vegans need supplements, they're just more aware of what the body should get, when in fact almost everyone likely needs supplements. They just don't know it.
Maybe you are thinking of processed vegan food, like a vegan nugget or hamburger. That is completely unnecessary. beans, lentils, chickpeas, seaweed, grains, rice, vegetables, nuts.... those are widely available and enough for a healthy diet.
For the rest I agree, it's easier to convince an omnivore to go vegetarian than vegan. But that has to do with their will, not with actual physical limitations.
It is easy once you are in, know what are the good vegan meals and how to cook them etc. Most people will have animal product for each meal - they don't know better. To them vegans just eat salads and nuts, which is obviously not enticing. If they don't take the easy way, they will just continue the only way they know how and change nothing.
I agree with you. I guess the difference lies in that I would call that laziness. Not knowing how to eat balanced meals (or more precisely, not looking it up), it's not a matter of it being hard or easy. It's a matter of simply doing it. All the information is out there and at a level anyone who can read will understand
I mean, you are not wrong. In a way easy way is always the lazy way - doesn't mean it is wrong. It can be daunting. Some people will take the fast, but hard way. Some people will take the longer/ but easy. If you end up in same destination, it's a win in the end.
I guess you meant to say fast but easy, or longer but hard, right?
I meant fast as in complete veganism overnight (hard) over slow, gradual change to eventually get to complete veganism (easier).
It's not the usual way the phrase goes I guess, or I just worded it badly
Aaaah ok ye now I get it.
I guess ultimately the end process is what's important, there I agree with you. However, with ethical issues, or matters of principle, you could argue time is of the essence.
For example, if the Western world had taken 30 more years in embracing the importance of LGTBIQ+ rights, we would be now at the same place as the likes of Russia or Saudi Arabia, which is a place we feel good about not being.
So in a way yes, the end result is what matters, but in the meantime it does kinda sucks to live in a society that normalizes something that will undoubtedly be considered morally wrong and unethical in the future
Totally! My point was that it's better slow than not at all. But obviously the faster the better.
Agreed!
You will get more people to join your cause with a positive message: i.g. "Do these small steps to start" than a negative one, I.g. "If you don't go fully vegan, you are still part of the problem."
"Perfect is the enemy of good."
So it is easier to convince people to reduce meat consumption, which than makes it more likely that people will go vegetarian or vegan later
And i actually feel like vegans on the internet can be too aggressive, alienating people they could get on their side
best is the enemy of better.
why are you giving vegans advice on how to market veganism? if the facts won't change your mind then it's not the fault of the vegans.
Because I want more people to become vegan and the way most people on the internet argue does not help this goal
I also want more vegans. there is no right way to change someone's mind. attack the problem from different angles is my view.
All compassion is good compassion
If you feel facts are "aggressive", the problem is you, not the facts.
Of course facts can be aggressive
Let's assume you talk to someone from a first world country. It is aggressive to say your lifestyle is responsible for the death of children in the developmental world, you are indirectly a murderer
It is more helpful to say: try fair-trade chlothes and check for companies that you buy from
Dividing society does not help better it
The facts aren't agressive, it is the tone.
It's kind of hard to approach this in a tactful way. I think a lot of why vegans don't appreciate this approach is because it often doesn't work in actual practice. I'll give a personal example as an analogy - I used to be a smoker. I tried quitting at least 50 times over the time period I was addicted to nicotine. One of the tricks I would use was to reduce the amount I would smoke each day. It would help briefly, but what would always happen is that I would get to a point where it was too hard to reduce any further, and then after plateauing for a few days, I would rebound and smoke even more than I used to.
Reduction still played a role in my effort to quit, but there were a lot of other tricks I had to employ to make it stick, and the overarching point is that reduction as a goal went nowhere, but reduction combined with the intent to stop all together did eventually work.
And that's what also happens with dietary changes. Reduction starts with halfway good intentions, but when it's the goal it becomes a temporary self-soothe that simply ends up rebounding in the end. In fact the people who run wfpb health coaching clinics have stated in interviews that people are most successful when they go all in with the dietary changes - because it turns out that people often feel dramatic positive changes to their health within only days of going plant-based, and those positive changes reinforce their motivation to keep going.
And as this article points out, reducitarianism can never achieve justice. It's like when suits-wearers promise to reduce their carbon emissions by 10% by 2035 or something. It's better than nothing, but will never solve the problems that need to be solved.
https://www.surgeactivism.org/reducetarianism
Your comment is about looking down on people... tongue in cheek or not, this is always the kind of stuff people post before complaining that the big mean vegans are alienating them... victim complex much?
If your goal when choosing what to eat is "look down on vegans", then you have a really shitty way of choosing what to eat.
Bruh,
If getting made fun of helps reduce the amount of meat that gets eaten, this seems very much like a good deal to me
https://www.surgeactivism.org/reducetarianism
This is either brain rot written by someone who doesn't understand propaganda or a psy-op and I can't tell which. So if it is a psy-op, congratulations on making an effective one.
Every doctor I've ever seen talk about diet, says that we should reduce our meat intake. They never suggest nor imply that people should go vegan as an alternative.
At least, from my limited experience.
I would argue that if someone has no intention of giving up meat, of which, there are plenty of people who are in that situation, then reduction can help improve the situation.
If someone is considering, or at least would consider going vegan, then veganism is the right choice, reduction may make the transition more difficult in the long term.
Thoughts? I'm happy to discuss. I just don't have the time right this second to do a ton of reading/watching content about the other side of this discussion, so I'd like to know what you have to say.
This is the only part that isn't obviously true. Of course, this is a question of fact to be decided by evidence, but here's my speculation:
Given the size of the population, it's clear that there will be some people who fall in either direction. Some people will find a gradual transition easier, some will be hindered by the possibility. I'm inclined to believe that it'd make things easier for more people than harder, but I have no basis of evidence to make that claim. It occurs to me that a general push to reduce meat consumption will also likely move the Overton window towards veganism, which would make large-scale vegan goals easier to achieve.
Generally, when society at large is as far removed from a position as it is with veganism, advocating for a half-measure will tend to help the cause rather than hurt it. Veganism requires changing the minds of the entire world, and getting people acclimated to the idea that we eat too much meat will likely help with that.
LMK if I wasn't able to answer your question, or if you want to ask another one.
I think you're on the right track here, I would be hard pressed to disagree.
The idea that reduction could hinder sometimes goals of becoming vegan is similar to any other habit or addiction. In some scenarios, reduction is the only option since cutting yourself off entirely can be fatal (methodone is one such example). In cases like smoking, going "cold turkey" can be significantly easier, since the idea is that you remove all of that item and all temptation to use it, from your life. Give yourself as few opportunities to fail as you can. You can't pick up smoking again without going to get more cigarettes. That can be a fairly involved task to accomplish. If you have no cigarettes, you can't not quit. In the same example context, reduction requires significant self control. Since you have the cigarettes, and nobody will stop you from having another. So it becomes entirely up to you to decide to reduce your intake. In that context, it's easy to, instead of reducing your intake, you simply go back to your normal habits, causing your efforts to reduce/quit, to fail entirely.
In the context of veganism, quitting by reduction still requires nontrivial willpower. It would be easy to grab a burger or pull out some other meat product to eat wherever you feel like it, and it can actively harm any efforts to be more vegan. Going the "cold turkey" route, you'll have a few weeks of discomfort and cravings, but as long as you stick to it, within a month, you should not have those cravings (at least, not nearly as severe), anymore.
It's easy to mentally justify that it's "just this once" or "I'll do better tomorrow" when you're deciding on a food option. However, if you go with an absolute disconnect of "if it has meat, say no" kind of thing, it would be harder to back slide into old habits.
I dunno. I'm just saying words. Everyone is different. We should respect other people's choices, whether that's for veganism or not. It's not like meat eaters are going around in their off time trapping chickens in closets for fun or anything. 90% either don't know, don't want to know, don't care, or don't feel like they can do anything about the factory farms. If they were informed, they would probably disagree with what's happening, but ultimately not feel any personal responsibility to take further action. They're not committing those kinds of atrocities, so it's not them doing the bad thing.
I know most vegans disagree with that mindset.
I dunno.
Anyone have some jerky?
Except it's not? Half-measures get half-results.