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You're treading a fine line Mr. Tim Apple
(lemmy.dbzer0.com)
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this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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For a “legal” emulator making money they sure didn’t put up a fight, I wonder why the other emulators are doing so and without the money that yuzu illegally pulled in? Maybe because yuzu wasn’t what you thought…?
You literally say they did shit wrong, then in the same breath defend them. This is hilarious. For someone who apparently did nothing wrong, they rolled over hella fast, that doesn’t make you question what they actually did…? Here’s the clue, the lawyers told them they were fucked, settle before discovery or you’re worse than screwed. There’s no way to prove any of this obviously, but it’s the only scenario that makes a shred of sense given the circumstances.
So Yuzu, at it's peak. Was making 45k a month from patreon donations. That's about 500k a year if that rate would sustain... In reality they were averaging 15-20k a month closer to 200k a year. Then a MASSIVE mega-corp hits you with legal action amounting to 2.4 billion or 12 YEARS of income... Do you put up a fight? How much of a fight can you put up as a small development team working on an emulator?
How many years do you fight the mega-corp with virtually unlimited money? How much does all those lawyers fees tally up to?
Of course they rolled over. EVEN IF THEY'RE RIGHT, it's going to be years and years of lawyers. It's going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars of money spent to defend this. Multiple years of wasted income.
If I was a billionaire and came to your house and made a claim to something under threat of burying you legally. What would your response be? How much could you resist before you have to settle and walk away from it? This happens literally ALL the time. Very few people win.
Yuzu is/was woefully unequipped to handle the situation. They "caved" so quickly because they knew they couldn't win the fight regardless. They'd exhaust all their income and time. The project would get no further development anyway. So rather than handing over all their assets, money, time, and future income... They just handed over all their assets and current money and the devs can move on to other projects.
This is obvious and normal. You're just obtuse.
No. I said the emulator was and is legal. You're the one using "illegal" like you're trying to pass the bar. Actions the Yuzu devs took show poor intent. The program itself was perfectly fine. Yuzu accepting donations isn't illegal either by the way.
And yet others with no income do fight and do win, so what kind of point do you think that’s making here…? Those don’t have the money to waste, and they fight, and win, since they did it right.
Some people will do it out of honor/integrity. Other's don't want the hassle. You're reading into shit way too far. I completely understand why this project wants to fold under nintendo.
I own an LLC, my LLC brings in roughly 160-180k a year and I pay myself only about 80k a year. If a multi-billion dollar company tried to nail me for something that I can't see the end of, I'd likely just fold the company and walk away to do something more worth my time.
Nothing about this is evidence that they are what you claim they are. You're reading WAY too much into such an easy to explain decision.
They are asking for 10 years of you company’s back pay. You would be a fool to not atleast pursue legal advice and attempt to fight it in court. You just handed them 1,600k for nothing, while only have had made 800k in that time.
And if you couldn’t plan and account for potential (very realistic) legal fees, you kinda don’t deserve to be in business. Use 5k a year to get yourself a lawyer and change your process so you aren’t illegal.
Did you really think that would turn this into your favour? Lmfao. The only reason to walk away, is because you were caught doing something wrong and couldn’t win. So yuzu creators had no morals, and were only in it for the money? That’s really the point you want to make here? Sounds like you operate borderline illegally if that’s your mindset here.
They didn't necessarily hand them anything. If I get sued like I explained in my previous post for my LLC...
I only have 30k in my company's account at this point. I turn off the patreon... I walk away from the company. Nintendo would only get the 30k even though the judgement was for 2.4 billion.
Ahahahah. Yeah you're a moron. Thanks for confirming it. 5k a year wouldn't even be close to the cost for a legal battle against Nintendo.
Edit: You edited your post. There's PLENTY of reasons to walk away. You're just being obtuse because of some "moral" dilemma you believe exists that doesn't. If they were actively developing their software, and actively spending their money they're donated via patreon/other income streams... They might only have like 10k in the bank (or less). And walking away makes a BOATLOAD of sense at that point. Pay a lawyer 200k+ for a multiyear lawsuit and maybe not win... or lose the application (open source... haha what a "loss") and lose 10k.... It's a nonissue, it's an OBVIOUS answer.
Oh my sweet summer child, a LLC only protects you so much, look what happened to Gary Bowser, you would have to claim bankruptcy as well, your life is gone for years.
Thats called preventative lawyers, you use that BEFORE Nintendo sends their dogs, and you give them the paper work you’ve already paid for and have and let them yell in courts.
And what LLC was Gary bowser operating under?
And no. If your llc dies you don't have to personally claim bankruptcy. You have now said several things that are completely and utterly false. Continuing this conversation with you will never be fruitful if your going to continue to lie about basic facts.
Why do you think LLCs exist if you have to personally file for bankruptcy?
Was the business he worked for not an LLC…?
https://www.pjlesq.com/amp/does-an-llc-always-protect-against-personal-liability
You should seriously read up on what an llc actually protects you from, because your lack of knowledge could put you in a seriously disastrous scenario you thought you were protected from.
Who the helm thinks a LLC protects them from everything…? The first term is literally LIMITED…… its not a full liability company lmfao.
Main relevant bit for you
Not protected from illegal actions… huh…. The exact scenario you just presented… huh… look at that..
Read your own link please.
Don't ever talk again on the internet until you can actually recite the differences. You are acting like an LLC is a sole proprietorship. And you're wholly wrong. Completely and utterly wrong.
There's only 2 cases where you will personally be liable in an LLC...
#2 could in "theory" be applicable here. But luckily we already know that emulators are wholesale safe under the law. You should already know this since it's been in response to your comments a few times now. DMCA clause 107. Since pulling your own keys off a device is categorically safe and even downloading the keys is safe... (Only distribution is prohibited by DMCA) Then Yuzu did nothing wrong. But since you completely missed these points I'm going to assume you didn't even read your own damn source.
But I suppose you already know this shit and are just trolling at this point. Since you can't answer a single question that anyone actually asks you. Even the most basic shit of "And what LLC was Gary bowser operating under?" BTW the next question after you answered that would have been "What were the charges that actually got him in trouble". At that point you would have realized that it had nothing to do with LLC operations, emulation, or anything nearly close to this topic. Mod chips != emulation. Nothing close to emulating a console which is completely legal per Sony Computer Entertainment America v. Bleem!
Wow... What an incredible showing of intelligence. Note that both of the above items (piercing the corporate veil and Tort participation) that can ruin your LLC ALSO HAPPEN IN "full liability company" (doesn't exist). What nonsense.
Edit: Also would like to point out the fact that you've still not answered ANY questions posed. You just throw out additional unrelated shit everytime someone shows you that you're wrong. It's tiring.
Not to mention :
Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. v. Cyberhead (2002)
Bleem, LLC v. Sony (2001)
Bleem, LLC v. Sony Computer Entertainment America, Inc. (2000)
Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. vs. Connectix Corporation (2000)
Sega Enterprises Ltd. v. Accolade, Inc. (1992)
Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. (1992)
Atari Games Corp. v. Nintendo of America Inc. (1992)
I never said a full liability company existed, I was using that to show how stupid your asinine claim was that you can’t be held liable in an LLC, I see from your last comment you atleast kind of understand it, even though you won’t admit you were wrong originally. For some strange reason… why are you pretending you didn’t even know you could be liable as an LLC a comment ago…?
Your comment
As explained, there is situations, despite this asinine claim. Lmfao. If you company gets taking for 2.4 bil, how do you expect to pay that if you make 80k a year…? If you think I was saying you would always be liable, well that’s entirely on your ineptness that you’ve clearly shown this entire exchange.
You can’t seriously be this inept can you? LLC is this magic thing that protects you from ALL liability… right…. Lmfao.
I never made such a claim. Read the sentence. Read the context of the post. Emulation is not illegal, therefore no torte could be claimed. And short of them piercing the veil... There's no liability. Why would Yuzu devs be individually liable and need to claim bankruptcy? Answer that question before you post anything else.
That's the whole point. The company doesn't. The company folds and walks away. There's no point in fighting the lawsuit if there's already nothing on the table to lose or gain. It's not like Yuzu could counter sue and make money back for all the effort they're going to not put into the emulator while going through the process.
Nah that's because that's literally what you said. But you like going back and editing comments without making it known. I bring up how an LLC works as an idea of why folding my company would make sense. You bring up Gary Bowser like that relevant at all, with NO ties to the current conversation.
Considering I actually have one. Am successful. Have successfully defending IRS audits and lawsuits in the past, I'm going to say that I firmly understand what an LLC is and how to use it to protect you. I've never once claimed bankruptcy and have talked to lawyers about how it all works (and don't have to retain them yearly!). I am highly suspicious that you have no fucking clue what an LLC actually is, nor can even understand how it's relevant the discussion at hand.
Let's go back and pull all the questions you refused to answer.
Why is Yuzu illegal? What part of Yuzu is any different than sony v bleem!?
Where is the proof for "The key they used to make the base engine was ripped from online"?
Where did Yuzu provide bios keys?
How did Yuzu pirate code when the repo is a completely different programming language?
How was that "stolen" code even relevant when it was regarding GUI modifications?
Where is the evidence for any of this: "The dev provided the means in discord themselves, they also had a google drive with a ripped key, they also had files on discord of roms to test their gamesc which were acquired illegally."
What about the prod.keys is illegal?
What does folding the company have to do with some implication of their actions being illegal when there's plenty of alternate possibilities for why they want to shut down rather than fight Nintendo?
Or any number of other questions you never addressed?
Shit.. I'll add one more... What the fuck does Gary Bowser have to do with this thread at all? Yuzu != Gary and they're not even doing remotely close to the same things.
This person clearly doesn't understand what they are talking about, it's just a clown show at this point.
I just find it funny how even after countless people repeatedly asking him to show solid proof of Yuzu illegally distributing encryption keys the best he could come up with is some random ass user on Twitter saying the same bs claims without any proof; Twitter, a platform that's totally not over 50% bot's and a totally reputable source of information, just the peak of human intelligence over there 🙄.
I mean 90% of twitter is just rage, bait or misinformation lmfao
I've been digging into the thread using nitter and all I see is a few screenshots of allegedly "GoldenX86_64" talking some crap about a "stash" then further searching found more screenshots with conflicting information and saying unproven crap about Ryujinx. Notice how neither of them show user ID so it's impossible to verify that either of them are the real GoldenX86_64, I can literally fake this shit myself using a private server.
More over, GoldenX86_64 wasn't even a Yuzu team member despite the headliner claims, they were a 3rd party contributor and nothing more. How do I know this? Because their Github account is right here with all of its history. Literally, just use
git log&git blame.Also, I find it funny how nobody making these claims thought for a second to show any proof that these are the same person via user ID or other methods, when it took me less than 5 minutes to find the real GoldenX86_64's personal email & legal name.
Lastly, using Wayback to view the now deleted source of these claims (which is suspect as hell), you'll notice discrepancies such as "Files Owned by dysonshere.com" as well as many other mentions of dysonshere.com so... WHO IS DYSONSHERE ??, as you see can it was registered in 2022-12-31.
You expect me to believe that the devs were using this so-called "stash" for a project that started in 2013? When this "stash" was registered literally a little less than 10 years later? You can't be fucking serious. 🤦🏽♀️
More over there's no proof that Yuzu owned this domain either, therefore even if they used this "stash" which is unproven, the DMCA requires that Yuzu be the one facilitating distribution, therefore users and 3rd party contributors sharing a link on discord to a 3rd party "stash" doesn't qualify. More over, it's additionally important to note, that the use of ROMs for emulator testing doesn't qualify as copyright infringement as the copyright content regardless if dumped from legitimate hardware with legal homebrew tools or otherwise isn't included in the source. So as the DMCA requires them to be the distributors via the ROMs or via the source, which they don't meet, they don't qualify. The only legal stance that could possibly be stood on would be if they were using the SDK, which is again, unproven.
Oh, and one more thing. Why the fuck would the devs have PORN in their alleged "dev stash" ??
The math is just not mathing.
As per US law, Nintendo needs to prove beyond a responsible doubt that Yuzu infringed on their copyright. While all these allegation look bad, there are big gaping holes.
If this is all Nintendo had the case would no doubt go to Yuzu. Assuming they could possibly survive the court fees and multi year lawsuit(s) Nintendo is going to drag them though. It doesn't matter anyway, it was settled out of court so in the end Yuzu still won and didn't go bankrupt in the process, as the law stays unchanged and GPLv3 does it's thing.
💾🔬👾👩🏽💻💡It never mathed up. This why i asked very simple questions and never got anything remotely close to an answer. Ultimately it comes down to one thing though... if Nintendo was 100% correct and yuzu was 100% wrong like this lunatic believes.... wouldn't they have never settled out of court and pursued complete and utter devastation of everyone related to yuzu just to set the court precedent alone? Nintendo didn't. So...
Exactly!! Nintendo knew that if Yuzu were to press on and bleed financially just slow enough that Nintendo would take the L. Having big implications essentially permanently legalizing emulators, never being able to challenge them in any meaningful way. They just wanted the project gone so gave them a favorable deal that wouldn't complete bankrupt Yuzu, so they took it. Walked away from the project and now it's in the communities hands not to mention in the arctic vault.
Uhh…. You don’t understand how a laws suit progresses apparently as well. To file a suit, you need to explain damages, if the plaintiff accepts them, you can’t suddenly go, no we want to fuck you more! They have to be reasonable and accountable, so hence why it was what it was and not anything more.
You truly have zero clue about this and this is the second time you have shown why no one should listen to you.
I already said the stuff has been deleted from their servers.
How do you expect to get solid proof…?
And I’m not going to engage with an absolute moron that thinks they can’t be held personally liable as the owner of an LLC….. Even after giving them proof they want to ignore it and pretend they weren’t wrong…. That’s not someone who will ever willingly admit they were wrong, so there’s no point in engaging further.
Even if I’m wrong, but there’s no proof they did anything right either here…. They are still completely wrong about not ever being able to be personally liable with a LLC…… the rest of what they said have lost all merit, defend the moron if you want. I gave them unequivocal proof they were wrong about something, they blew it off, I can do the same with this emulator BS and still wouldn’t belief it…………
All they have done is continually move the goalposts and ignore anything against them, so fuck me for doing the same back. I’m not going to engage with a bunch of people blindly defending someone who didn’t even try to defend the product, when others did with zero funds. It’s hilarious, they wanted their money and to run, and you guys are defending them for doing it. AWWWHHHH
You also seem to be ignoring the big part where it says an llc or its owner can be liable for its companies actions…. Or the actions yuzu did… you guys are claiming he didn’t do it, so it’s not wrong…. Uhh… he’s personally responsible for anything his company he operated did….. this is the part you guys can’t fucking figure out lmfao. It was also literally spelt out for you morons multiple fucking times. “It wasn’t him” doesn’t fucking matter… his company did it…. He fucked up even if he didn’t! Fucking hell lmfao, you guys have no idea how businesses operate or how they can be exposed.
Also, nice alt account lmfao.
You clearly don't understand US copyright law, that's the problem here. This argument is ultimately pointless, Nintendo trying to force Japanese copyright law on the US will be a never ending battle. GPLv3 makes it live on, just how GPLv3 makes Revanced live on. It'll never stop.
And yet again the goalposts get moved instead of addressing anything…. What a fucking shocker….
Why is this suddenly about “US” copyright? Nothing about the US has been mentioned until now, and where was Yuzu based anyways….
You're asking the wrong question.
The question is where was the lawsuit filed?
Huh, so it IS an llc and he would be personally liable for any illegal activities his company did…. Even if he did nothing wrong himself…..
Wow. You couldn’t have provided a worse piece of evidence against your crusade than that…
His "company" so excluding random ass users and 3rd party contributors. US copyright law is based on precedence. I'm sure you're aware of the list. Also, check out GPLv3 while you're at it.
If I have weapons cache of guns and “accidentally” leave the door unlocked, would I not be liable if they found that out? Yes, this is the exact same situation, they left their door unlocked and could have done something to prevent this from happening. They didn’t, so they are complicit. It’s not just about copyright, why are you sticking to this like it’s some smoking gun or something….?
Theres plenty of precedence going both ways, you just have to look at the correct way for it to click in your head.
The companies actions or negligence, provided means, as described above, there’s plenty of precedence where you will be liable. Sorry this doesn’t fit with your head bias, but facts don’t care.
.
.
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The only facts you’ve provided have gone against your crusade.
So… yeah you’re kinda missing the point if you think you’ve provided any facts and it’s ironic that I can’t see my head bias. What bias? I’ve given you the facts lmfao.
And instead of moving the goalposts, we move to insulting when proven wrong, what a fucking shocker….
Those are your own words. Unfortunately for you, Nintendo still lost. GPLv3 is a tweaked Copyright licensing agreement aptly nicknamed "Copyleft" with strict rights, Nintendo will never be able to kill the Hydra no matter what. They actually need to win to change the law, but they settled instead meaning section 107 of the DMCA, 1998 US copyright law goes unaltered and the original developers move on, and the community builds on top and alter the project, as per the rights granted by GPLv3. Perhaps a project that'd reach enough funding fast enough to challenge Nintendo may go for it, till then GPLv3 is a sleeping multi-headed dragon Nintendo hasn't been able to stomp out.
Just because a license says something, doesn’t mean that it can go against laws and legislations or anything else like that lmfao.
Just like a landlord having a contract from you saying X or Y, if it goes against the law, it doesn’t protect them.
All of those subsequent ones will be fine from prosecution, until they start doing what yuzu did like making money, providing means to pirate and access to keys and guides. The protection is only going to last so long until the current loopholes are closed.
Or just don’t do illegal shit and you can stay in operation, Cistra and Yuzu were fine for a decade, than they went too far and fucked up.
You can scream all you want, the facts don’t care about when your “company” crosses the line and your probably legal project gets taken with it.
To bad, GPLv3 already has all the precedence and legal backing needed to keep going, Suyu lives, I wonder what the project will be renamed to next? 😏
And suyu will continue to live until they do what yuzu did and try to profit and do things illegally.
https://lemmy.sdf.org/comment/10574699
There's no need to profit from it anymore, donations exist, Nintendo created a Streisand effect.
Emulators are fine for personal use, if you are accepting donations, it’s no longer for personal use and you’ve done your illegal action…..
Why do you think the ones that don’t accept donations aren’t being targeted…? Because they are currently in a gray area. Once you start doing illegal actions… they get taken out.
That's factually incorrect. They've gone after Dolphin whom explicitly don't accept donations. Then there's, Ryujinx, Cemu, Libretro/RetroArch, emuDeck, etc. that accept donations. This again comes down to the GPLv3 which doesn't restrict the selling of binaries of the legal code nor restrict donations. Infact if one is only accepting donations, your company by U.S. copyright law are a nonprofit.
uhh… Dolphin uses the Wii key, that’s what they did wrong… each one has done an illegal activity that has lead to them being pursued.
Its really not a hard concept to try and grasp here, sorry.
Nothing about my previous comment is “factually” incorrect. Which specific part do you think I was wrong about, and provide a source to disclaim it if you want to try and make a point.
A lot of those apps are actual “donations” as well, not a patreon with locked emulator content…. If you can’t comprehend the differences of what’s being done, why the fuck are you discussing?
GPL has nothing to with donations… that’s what makes the emulator defense invalid for copyright, you’re only protected for personal use. Can you please stop conflating these very simple things……?
You have no clue how the GPLv3 works, nor U.S. Copyright law. Please stop pretending like you do.
Then why hasn't Nintendo fallowed through and killed Dolphin yet? If it's illegal, then why haven't they continued trying to sue Dolphin?
Because they are fighting it instead of rolling over like Yuzu….?
Why are we going back over the same shit again? If you don’t have anything more to try and defend Yuzu who fucked up, are we done…?
Again, factually wrong. Dolphin removed itself off the steam store to satisfy Nintendo, however it's still on the Google play store and Apple app store and actively developed so why doesn't Nintendo keep coming?
Also, Churches are non-profit, KDE Community are non-profit, Gnome is non-profit, FSF is non-profit, and so on. All of which collect donations. What makes an emulator start-up company any different in this regard?
…. Steam asked Nintendo if it was okay, and they cited the Wii key and said no, so Steam delisted it. Dolphin did nothing, and there was no DMCA claim either.
Don’t claim I’m false and spout a wrong one yourself lol.
Are you going to address the main point or are you just going to continue to prattle on?
Which point have I not addressed? You cause me of prattling, yet we’ve already established you’re moving goal posts and other fallacies. If you can’t defend a single one of your points without shooting your own foot. What are we doing here?
You accuse me of stuff and ignore me pointing out the folley in it.
You seriously are just the alt of the other account aren’t you? Can’t admit a mistake when given unequivocal evidence.
I’m blocking you now.
You haven't addressed :
Or
Go ahead and block me, it just makes it obvious that you're afraid to address the main point.
https://lemmy.sdf.org/comment/10599956