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this post was submitted on 27 Mar 2024
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I could see an argument about medical devices, HVAC, and vehicles... But I don't think I'd agree with them. Except maybe medical.
Consoles and toothbrushes though? What the fuck?
I don't see any argument for vehicles, tbh. HVAC tinkering is almost exclusively high voltage so that makes just a little sense, don't want people swapping a 350 volt AC capacitor with a 250 volt DC capacitor and having it blow up, but Vehicles means a manufacturer can do everything imaginable to limit part availability and kill aftermarket parts purely for profits.
Vehicles need it because the keyless entry radio needs to pair with the engine start. Otherwise a thief can steel a car in a few minutes by bringing their own computers.
I guarantee you keyless start cars aren't more secure because of paired parts. The encryption for the fob's signal isn't the result of a paired part.
Particularly as a lot of newer thefts just use an amplifier to boost the key signal, and fake the key being in the car. Part pairing wouldn't help at all there.
Define more secure. More secure than what? A non-keyless entry car of the same year and model? A car from ten years ago that doesn't have parts and modules that do a handshake and will immobilize the vehicle if the system is tampered with?
I'm not arguing that it is more secure. That's what others said. I'm arguing it is a non-factor in security. Nearly unbreakable encryption methods exist without any reliance on physical part-pairing. The only benefit from it is the manufacturer profiting more off of it as users become more reliant on the manufacturer in case of device failure and replacement.
I think the immobilization is key here and not something I would trust from any third party. If a third party has access to the encryption method, so does a hacker with the right tools.
Additionally, it's configured to the VIN specifically so you can't steal or buy genuine parts with a key you have access to and swap them into a vehicle that those parts don't belong to. Chop shops have the ability to do this in the event that these modules aren't configured properly and don't require the right validation from other modules.
Encryption can be done purely between first and second party if you want to rely on the manufacturer for some reason, or if you're really the complete owner you should have full access to the vehicle's systems via physical connection and credentials. There is no need for third parties, for a comparison you don't just give out your email account access or computer password do you?
The government doesn't as heavily regulate your email password or computer. The government does regulate automakers and the vehicles they produce. Included safety and security regulations.
So you're implying Google Email is not secure? You think that because your computer is not physically paired to a google server that the Google encryption can easily be cracked, or that vice versa it couldn't be if it were?
If those are your stances, then you are wrong on all accounts.
What in the straw man argument. Your email doesn't drive on public roads you moron. What are you even talking about.
And if you want to completely own a motor vehicle buy and build a kit car. And the.n go get it inspected because the government won't let you drive it on the road until you can prove it's road worthy.
You said that part pairing is a security measure due to regulation which computers don't have, so that means you think that computers are less secure because they are less regulated, right? Part Pairing is not a security measure, encryptions without part pairing are just as secure.
Lol. That's a poorly worded excuse for a come back that doesn't make an actual point and puts words in my mouth I never said. Additionally it adds meaning to the words I did say that don't make any sense.
Further, since your computer is in fact fairly insecure (look up how easy it is to just completely bypass windows and install Linux) I wouldn't be opening myself up to further arguments in this vein if I were you. Emails get hacked all the time. It's literally a scammers paradise. Know one of the things that prevents spear phishing and other attacks? A physical security key. Or multi factor authentication. What are you even on.
If you think it's so easy to break AES-256 then feel free to prove it. The whole world would be amazed at your feat. Clearly all other forms of security are meaningless in the face of paired parts, right?
Was that my claim? Did I claim this was the only way? Nope. Never claimed that.
.....you mean like they do currently?
Which is why manufactures are now putting those pairs in so you cannot do that anymore.
If the security was so bad that removing part pairing would crash this, then it wasn't secure to begin with. Same argument as apple pairing the fingerprint sensor, the emsensor is only doing the reading, not the authentication.
They're right though. The security in newer cars and anti-theft features require that a couple of different modules talk to and validate each other. That's how it's designed to work to prevent theft or hacking. When your ECU talks to your keyless entry module or what have you they perform a handshake. That ECU and keyless entry module talk to the vehicle's starting system to validate that yes the correct key at the correct range is being used to send the signal to start the vehicle.
Again, if you're so deep in the car that this matters, this is not the part that's going to stop you, unless the car is so poorly built that the keyless entry module is readily available without taking apart the entire car. This is a non-problem.
It isn't just one module. That's what I'm trying to tell you. There's a handshake. So replacing the Electronics control module or the Powertrain control module those modules have to be configured to the Vin. In my mother's escape the PCM is in the wheel well behind a liner held in by plastic clips. None of those parts can be replaced without being configured to the VIN.
As for poorly designed cars, yeah. They've been making them for years and security has been evolving. Doesn't mean we should set ourselves back in that arena because Joe wants to swap out his PCM with one from the junk yard.
CAN network injection can be achieved through the headlight well on some cars.
https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/18/vehicle-headlight-can-bus-injection-theft-method-update/
I know that it isn't just one module. What is the handshake achieving exactly? Because it's not additional security from an attacker trying to replace the keyless entry module with a hacked one, and if it is doing that then this is a terrible security design and the actual solution is not to get to keep using this 'security' threat model.
According to the diagram I'm looking at? The front door handle receives the entry signal from the key that's in proximity to the vehicle (I think it's something like within three feet). That signal is sent to a BCM (ECU), that then talks to other PAssive entry antennas on the vehicle to unlock the door. Simultaneously it talks to the PCM and IPC through the Gateway module, sending a Passive Entry enable signal. Those modules talk to the ignition switch allowing the vehicle to be started. Looks like this happens on what's called the High Speed CAN network. So the question is, if I can access this network via something like the PCM and the PCM isn't properly configured to prevent this, can I override the network without having the key with sufficient tech? That's problematic for a lot of reasons. So no. I don't think you should be able to go to a junkyard or pick and pull and buy a module that could compromise your network and I don't understand why anyone would want that. You absolutely can buy a module from the manufacturer and get a shop (not even a dealership, just an independent shop with the right tools) to configure a module.
You don't have to have paired parts for secure authentication. You just need parts that have been set up and authenticated beforehand. That is not the same as part pairing.
What's to stop me from going to a junk yard, paying for a key and the modules in question, attaching them to a different car and stealing that car?
Literally nothing stops you from doing that with paired parts. Nothing. Keyless cars get hacked, stolen, dismantled, and rebuilt all the time, just like any other car.
Encryption and authentication are equally secure with or without physical part pairing.
That's not true. The paired parts are attached to the VIN. Literally programmed with the VIN of the car and a lot of them are single use for specifically this reason. You don't know and you're very insistent.
You can't. That's the point. Once those parts are configured to a vin they only work with that vin.
I guarantee you that the paired parts can and will be swapped out or stolen. It does nothing to protect consumers. Give me an example of a manufacturer who uses paired parts and I'll find examples of thefts, hacks, and replacements.
I do for things like ECUs that are programmed to the vin to prevent theft or tampering that would allow an attack vector for the vehicle.
I guess console because they want the whole thing intact to enforce DRM?
Exactly.
Good thing part pairing doesn't exist for the Switch.
Mine is the Ship of Theseus at that point.
For toothbrushes, are they worried repair won't re-seal it effectively so make it unsuitable for use in the wet environment?
Which is dumb, because there's nothing stopping anyone from replacing the seals/glue when they put it back together. And at least in the USA manufactures have been covered for damages/harm resulting from a flawed consumer-based repair since since 1975.
I hope you're right and this isn't about them getting ready to DRM brush handles to brush heads. Sonicare brush heads are ridiculously overpriced compared to the knock offs
Even HVAC, WTF?
I mean, I don't want the thing supplying the air I'm breathing to accidentally not burn all the gas and lead to carbon monoxide poisoning etc.... Things like the ductwork and shit, for sure, but not like, a burner.
The great irony is it's frequently the "ductwork" that's the problem: plugged or badly installed exhaust pipes, which the manufacture has no control over. The rest are the appliance itself wearing out or failing with no warning.
I've repaired furnaces myself several times including replacing burners and exhaust fans -- it isn't rocket science. It's no different than working on any other "dangerous" thing like a car. If someone somehow manages to fuck up so badly it hurts or kills someone that's on them.
Yeah that's totally valid. Agreed.
But I also wouldn't really trust third party parts for the appliance itself. I think once you do, that immediately becomes a possible problem. If it was in my house, I'd only buy from the manufacturer for something like that.
But on the other hand, Idk that it's necessarily wrong to legislate forcing these companies to allow it. I generally believe consumers should have the option on their own, but some things are too dangerous. I'd pretty much be against medical devices but HVAC is a little more uncertain to me.
So you want to be stuck with the same thermostat forever? Imagine it comes with one of those Amazon ones with a persistent camera and microphone in it that you can't opt out of.
A thermostat doesn't have refrigerants/gasses in them. It's nothing more than a complicated on off switch
You need some sort of licensing to do most HVAC work anyways. Theres no point in forcing companies to make all the parts available to the average joe when the average joe can't legally do the work anyways.